You Learn Something New Every Day

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Number 6
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Number 6 »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 18:46
Number 6 wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:40
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:05 Apparently you can aspirate a tooth. No fucking joke.
Tell me you got to watch the bronchoscopy.
I was holding the bronchoscope.
Noice. Did they use the grabbers to pull it out? Also, what kind of symptoms did the patient have? Stridor? Crackles?
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Jennifer
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jennifer »

JD wrote: 30 Jan 2021, 12:08
Jennifer wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:46
JD wrote: 28 Jan 2021, 07:56 The Ball Corporation, the one that made those canning jars everybody calls "Ball jars", that everyone's grandma used for jams and green beans and such? They have a subsidiary called Ball Aerospace & Technologies that is a major military contractor.
Now that I think about it, it makes a LOT more sense than, say, Yamaha manufacturing both motorcycles and fine pianos.
Interestingly enough, it looks like they started out with musical instruments, then got into machinery because of WWII, but at the end of the war found themselves with bombed-out instrument factories and a whole lot of machine factories that suddenly had no military customers.
If Japan does rom-com movies, that could be the premise of one. "HE was a rough-and-tumble biker outlaw! SHE was a high society professional pianist! But when their two worlds collided at the Yamaha dealership...."
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Number 6 wrote: 30 Jan 2021, 13:02
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 18:46
Number 6 wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:40
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:05 Apparently you can aspirate a tooth. No fucking joke.
Tell me you got to watch the bronchoscopy.
I was holding the bronchoscope.
Noice. Did they use the grabbers to pull it out? Also, what kind of symptoms did the patient have? Stridor? Crackles?
Yeah. Used the long alligators. Tried to cryo attach it but wouldn't stick. Unsure of symptoms. I don't have access to epic* at new hospital so not aware of symptoms.

*Charting system. They don't think a tech should need to see a patients chart. It's a weird place.
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Highway
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Highway »

JD wrote: 30 Jan 2021, 12:08
Jennifer wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:46
JD wrote: 28 Jan 2021, 07:56 The Ball Corporation, the one that made those canning jars everybody calls "Ball jars", that everyone's grandma used for jams and green beans and such? They have a subsidiary called Ball Aerospace & Technologies that is a major military contractor.
Now that I think about it, it makes a LOT more sense than, say, Yamaha manufacturing both motorcycles and fine pianos.
Interestingly enough, it looks like they started out with musical instruments, then got into machinery because of WWII, but at the end of the war found themselves with bombed-out instrument factories and a whole lot of machine factories that suddenly had no military customers.
I think it's also worth pointing out that everything that Yamaha makes is quality and competitive in its field. I have a Yamaha bass, acoustic guitar, upright piano, and have had a compact stereo and AV receiver from them, and would have no hesitation in buying the brand again.
Well, that was a long walk down a windy beach to a cafe that was closed...
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Highway wrote: 30 Jan 2021, 15:49
JD wrote: 30 Jan 2021, 12:08
Jennifer wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 16:46
JD wrote: 28 Jan 2021, 07:56 The Ball Corporation, the one that made those canning jars everybody calls "Ball jars", that everyone's grandma used for jams and green beans and such? They have a subsidiary called Ball Aerospace & Technologies that is a major military contractor.
Now that I think about it, it makes a LOT more sense than, say, Yamaha manufacturing both motorcycles and fine pianos.
Interestingly enough, it looks like they started out with musical instruments, then got into machinery because of WWII, but at the end of the war found themselves with bombed-out instrument factories and a whole lot of machine factories that suddenly had no military customers.
I think it's also worth pointing out that everything that Yamaha makes is quality and competitive in its field. I have a Yamaha bass, acoustic guitar, upright piano, and have had a compact stereo and AV receiver from them, and would have no hesitation in buying the brand again.
Ditto, except maybe for the last clause. My first guitar, now a collector's item which I still play, is a 1969 Yamaha Red Label FG-180, and my first good stereo receiver was a Yamaha, too. I don't know whether Yamaha has kept up the quality it deservedly had a reputation for back in the day, but the reputation was for well designed and well built items at a low to mid-range price point with mid-range quality. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd rescue my Martin from the fire long before reaching for the Yamaha.
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Ellie
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Ellie »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 21:31 Dental procedure gone wrong.

Lost the tooth extracted down the throat. Ended up in right bronchus.
Oh goody, my dentist phobia was getting a little weak lately.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Ellie wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 21:42
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 21:31 Dental procedure gone wrong.

Lost the tooth extracted down the throat. Ended up in right bronchus.
Oh goody, my dentist phobia was getting a little weak lately.
Dentists are just people with advanced degrees. They still make mistakes
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Jennifer
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jennifer »

The modern jigsaw puzzle dates back to 1700s England, when "dissected maps" were created and sold as educational toys to teach geography to children.
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Ellie
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Ellie »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 01:00
Ellie wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 21:42
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 21:31 Dental procedure gone wrong.

Lost the tooth extracted down the throat. Ended up in right bronchus.
Oh goody, my dentist phobia was getting a little weak lately.
Dentists are just people with advanced degrees. They still make mistakes
THAT DOESN'T HELP THE PHOBIA, PHAM
Like baptists at the glory hole

"oh dear" they mutter, unzipping their pants

-dhex
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Ellie wrote: 14 Feb 2021, 20:58
Pham Nuwen wrote: 01 Feb 2021, 01:00
Ellie wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 21:42
Pham Nuwen wrote: 29 Jan 2021, 21:31 Dental procedure gone wrong.

Lost the tooth extracted down the throat. Ended up in right bronchus.
Oh goody, my dentist phobia was getting a little weak lately.
Dentists are just people with advanced degrees. They still make mistakes
THAT DOESN'T HELP THE PHOBIA, PHAM
I IS WHAT I IS!!!!
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leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex
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thoreau
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by thoreau »

Greta Thunberg's mother is an opera singer. I've actually seen videos of a few of her performances. She brings good comedic acting to the opera.

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dhex
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

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The jokes about hot air running in the family write themselves.,
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lshap
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by lshap »

Pachelbel Canon in D
Pet Shop Boys Go West
Blues Traveler Hook

Whaaaa? How did I never notice this before?
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Jadagul
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jadagul »

lshap wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 18:07 Pachelbel Canon in D
Pet Shop Boys Go West
Blues Traveler Hook

Whaaaa? How did I never notice this before?
In "Hook" that's like half the joke, right?

But also:

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

I'm probably missing something here but basically Pachelbel's Canon in D is the following chord progression: D A Bm F#m G D G A D, the chords in the key of D are D, E min, F# min, G, A, B min and C# dim and the chord progressions in, well, everything in D major are D G A variations, plus on the guitar the finger position to or from B min and F# min is very easy (well, as barre chords go), so it would be very strange if a large number of other melodies in D major didn't use those tonic, subdominant, dominant (I, IV, V) chords plus, again, at least on the guitar the B min (vi) and F# min (iii). So... um, am I missing something more profound?
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Jadagul
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jadagul »

D.A. Ridgely wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 20:39 I'm probably missing something here but basically Pachelbel's Canon in D is the following chord progression: D A Bm F#m G D G A D, the chords in the key of D are D, E min, F# min, G, A, B min and C# dim and the chord progressions in, well, everything in D major are D G A variations, plus on the guitar the finger position to or from B min and F# min is very easy (well, as barre chords go), so it would be very strange if a large number of other melodies in D major didn't use those tonic, subdominant, dominant (I, IV, V) chords plus, again, at least on the guitar the B min (vi) and F# min (iii). So... um, am I missing something more profound?
You're like 2/3 right, and the comedy video is 2/3 silly.

The progression in Pachelbel is I V vi iii IV I IV V, which as you say renders as D A Bm F#m G D G A in D.

A really, really common progression in modern popular music is the "four chord" progression I V vi IV, which would just be D A Bm G. That shows up all over the place, and a substantial fraction of the songs he cites are actually the four-chord progression.

(And the joke about the four chord progression is largely making fun of songs that are just those four chords, but it's pretty common to include that progression and also some other stuff. E.g. the verses of "Let It Be" are I V vi IV I V IV I, not just the four-chord progression repeated, and the bridge is something different again. That said, it's pretty amusing how many songs have that exact progression as a core aspect of their harmony.

But the Pachelbel progression is not just the four-chord progression; it's longer and more intricate, and actually pretty unusual in modern popular music. The iii chord, which is F#m in the key of D, isn't used all that much. (The F#m gets a lot of use if you're playing in A, where it's the vi chord, but not a lot in D.) And it's also long enough that you won't hit on it by accident. But "Hook" and also "Go West" are reproducing it exactly. They're using the exact same bass line. "Go West" is also nearly quoting the melody; "Hook" is also doing something very similar in the guitar solo. And neither is ever, ever deviating, which is part of what's distinctive about Canon in D; the "Canon" in the title refers to an organized repeated pattern.

And this is clearly, like, deliberate. "Hook" is specifically about using familiar ideas to make your music appealing even though it's not saying anything substantive. The fact that the harmony is one of the most familiar and memed-on pieces in the Western canon is very definitely part of that joke (to annoy Warren).
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Jadagul wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 22:11
D.A. Ridgely wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 20:39 I'm probably missing something here but basically Pachelbel's Canon in D is the following chord progression: D A Bm F#m G D G A D, the chords in the key of D are D, E min, F# min, G, A, B min and C# dim and the chord progressions in, well, everything in D major are D G A variations, plus on the guitar the finger position to or from B min and F# min is very easy (well, as barre chords go), so it would be very strange if a large number of other melodies in D major didn't use those tonic, subdominant, dominant (I, IV, V) chords plus, again, at least on the guitar the B min (vi) and F# min (iii). So... um, am I missing something more profound?
You're like 2/3 right, and the comedy video is 2/3 silly.

The progression in Pachelbel is I V vi iii IV I IV V, which as you say renders as D A Bm F#m G D G A in D.

A really, really common progression in modern popular music is the "four chord" progression I V vi IV, which would just be D A Bm G. That shows up all over the place, and a substantial fraction of the songs he cites are actually the four-chord progression.

(And the joke about the four chord progression is largely making fun of songs that are just those four chords, but it's pretty common to include that progression and also some other stuff. E.g. the verses of "Let It Be" are I V vi IV I V IV I, not just the four-chord progression repeated, and the bridge is something different again. That said, it's pretty amusing how many songs have that exact progression as a core aspect of their harmony.

But the Pachelbel progression is not just the four-chord progression; it's longer and more intricate, and actually pretty unusual in modern popular music. The iii chord, which is F#m in the key of D, isn't used all that much. (The F#m gets a lot of use if you're playing in A, where it's the vi chord, but not a lot in D.) And it's also long enough that you won't hit on it by accident. But "Hook" and also "Go West" are reproducing it exactly. They're using the exact same bass line. "Go West" is also nearly quoting the melody; "Hook" is also doing something very similar in the guitar solo. And neither is ever, ever deviating, which is part of what's distinctive about Canon in D; the "Canon" in the title refers to an organized repeated pattern.

And this is clearly, like, deliberate. "Hook" is specifically about using familiar ideas to make your music appealing even though it's not saying anything substantive. The fact that the harmony is one of the most familiar and memed-on pieces in the Western canon is very definitely part of that joke (to annoy Warren).
Okay, although I'm not clear about which third I missed. Admittedly, my understanding of musical canons more or less stops, Pachelbel aside, with Row, Row, Row Your Boat. But at the risk of embarrassing myself further with my sketchy understanding of musicology, I'll just note that while everything you said by way of generalization is as far as I can tell correct, once you've decided your song is in the key of D, it would be damned near impossible to write it without those four chords or at least the three major chords. (Okay, maybe I-V if you're punk.) I mean, that's just analytically true. And from a guitarist's point of view, though not a pianist's (Let It Be is easy enough on the piano, at least in C major, that even I can bang it out), once you begin noodling on that four chord progression in that key including Bm it's as likely as not that F#m will work its way into that noodling because, again, it's an easy chord change. (Obviously, the whole thing in C major is even easier but, again, we're in D, so....)

Yes, thousands of pop songs use only four chords, the fourth more likely being the relative minor, and I understand "hooks," but I think you're wrong that a songwriter wouldn't hit on the entire Pachelbel progression "by accident," though I'll grant that its popular rediscovery in the '70s make it a likely subliminal influence if nothing else. Hell, what's "White Rabbit" but "Boléro" redux? *shrug*

ETA: It just occurred to me by way of partial example that James Taylor likes to write in D and that F#m finds its way into a number of those songs. Then again, I don't think anyone ever accused Taylor of being a four chord musician.
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Jadagul
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jadagul »

The significance isn't just the chords, but the order. It's really hard to write music in a major key without using I, IV, V, and vi. But the four-chord progression is a specific arrangement of those.

The iii is less common, though I'm sure you can find examples of it being used. But the specific Pachelbel progression is a lot less common. Usually that particular progression is done intentionally to riff off of Pachelbel, because it's not a thing you'd write normally—not just the use of the iii chord, but the vi iii I cadence is unusual in modern pop music. Then add on the really emphasized regular bass line that's the one Pachelbel used.

(See also this lovely ragtime bit by Noam Elkies.)

This isn't, like, a criticism of either of those songs. As I said, it's very much part of the joke of "Hook"; I don't know why "Go West" decided to do that but I've thought about that song a lot less. But it is very much a thing they're deliberately choosing to do.
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lshap
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by lshap »

As far as I could follow the conversation, I think you explained this perfectly Jadagul.

I think it's a very cool phenomenon. And love the ragtime version!
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JD
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by JD »

D.A. Ridgely wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 23:22 once you've decided your song is in the key of D, it would be damned near impossible to write it without those four chords or at least the three major chords. (Okay, maybe I-V if you're punk.)
"One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz." -- Lou Reed

There are actually plenty of one-chord compositions in popular music, and I suspect the number of two-chord songs is uncountable.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Eric the .5b »

Certainly a lot of three-chord songs. I forget who, but a member of REM once said that a friend of his said the band only used three of the four rock chords, but they used the Hell out of those three.
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Jadagul
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jadagul »

Eric the .5b wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 14:47 Certainly a lot of three-chord songs. I forget who, but a member of REM once said that a friend of his said the band only used three of the four rock chords, but they used the Hell out of those three.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

JD wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 14:44
D.A. Ridgely wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 23:22 once you've decided your song is in the key of D, it would be damned near impossible to write it without those four chords or at least the three major chords. (Okay, maybe I-V if you're punk.)
"One chord is fine. Two chords is pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz." -- Lou Reed

There are actually plenty of one-chord compositions in popular music, and I suspect the number of two-chord songs is uncountable.
Re Reed, it therefore follows that "Walk on the Wild Side" is jazz and, say, "Berlin" or "Perfect Day" is symphonic.

Yeah, I know, Reed was joking. Or high. Or both.

To be clear, there may well be lots of two or one chord songs. I doubt there are many musicians, in the loosest sense possible of that word, who only know two or one chord and, in any case, I think I'm on terra firma saying that the vast majority of pop and rock songs use three or four chords, minimum.

Also, I was trying to make a case about songs in a particular key from the POV of a guitarist noodling around chord progressions. At some point Jadagul and I seemed then to be speaking at cross purposes because, of course, there's a difference between lifting a four chord progression and lifting the entire Canon; however, I don't know and I don't think Jadagul actually knows how many songs did the latter, but I'm betting it's far more than two or three.

Finally, there's this (below) which I always found amusing because, well, if you're (I don't mean you, JD; I mean if one is) going to learn three chords and use all three in your new band, A-D-E or C-F-G would make vastly more sense. but I guess if you're only using one or two of them then it doesn't really matter?

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Jadagul
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

Post by Jadagul »

Oh there are definitely others that are lifting the entire Canon in D. A quick google gives me a long-ass spotify playlist; a bunch of them are not really lifts, but e.g. "Graduation" (by Vitamin C) and "C U When U Get There" (by Coolio) very clearly are. (And make it even clearer by including actual stringed instruments playing actual excerpts from the original.)

As I said, it's one of the most memed-on pieces of classical (well, Baroque) music. There are a lot of different pieces that are clearly importing it wholesale. But unlike the four-chord progression, in most of these cases this is not an example of convergent evolution; it's a deliberate decision by the musicians to use the Canon progression.

And that's a reasonable TIL: that there's this old piece of music, called Canon and Gigue in D or "Pachelbel's Canon", which you probably know from weddings, that gets memed on a ton and has been imported by a bunch of modern pop musicians to form the backbone of a song.
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Re: You Learn Something New Every Day

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I have very little to contribute but I'll leave this here anyway.

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