The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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dhex
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Post by dhex »

Are there consequences in treating people like they have no agency? Because that's the core narrative here, at least media-wise.
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Shem
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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dhex wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:15 Are there consequences in treating people like they have no agency? Because that's the core narrative here, at least media-wise.
Do street-level mooks in the mob have agency?
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Jadagul
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:27
Hugh Akston wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:13
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.
Trump has spent four years inciting the crowd. They may have been planning this before his Jan 6th speech, but he is the sine qua non of what happened at the capitol.
Yes, sorry I meant to add that caveat, because yeah maybe it wasn't 'imminent' incitement under the legal definition at least per popehat's explanations, but he 100% did rev this up over the past five and a half years of basically inviting his people to kick the asses of anyone who's against him.
It's honestly probably a better count that he refused to authorize support for the capitol police in any way.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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dhex wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:15 Are there consequences in treating people like they have no agency? Because that's the core narrative here, at least media-wise.
They have agency but so does the President. We can hold that fuckhead accountable while also acknowledging that he only played a part. A hitman has agency, but you're still getting fitted for that orange jumpsuit if you tell him you'll give him a couple grand to knock off the missus.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Jadagul wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:28
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:27
Hugh Akston wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:13
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.
Trump has spent four years inciting the crowd. They may have been planning this before his Jan 6th speech, but he is the sine qua non of what happened at the capitol.
Yes, sorry I meant to add that caveat, because yeah maybe it wasn't 'imminent' incitement under the legal definition at least per popehat's explanations, but he 100% did rev this up over the past five and a half years of basically inviting his people to kick the asses of anyone who's against him.
It's honestly probably a better count that he refused to authorize support for the capitol police in any way.
Yeah, there's a totality of events that give him a lot of culpability, from spending months/years spinning this up, to interfering with the planning, to slow-walking the attempts to calm things down (and if reports are true that only happened when his aides all but forced him to). I just can't interpret this as anything but him wanting shit to go down more-or-less like it did. I can only assume that the one thing he didn't actually want was for someone to kill a cop, but only because he presumably thought the cops wouldn't even try to stop it.
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Jadagul
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:46
Jadagul wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:28
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:27
Hugh Akston wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:13
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.
Trump has spent four years inciting the crowd. They may have been planning this before his Jan 6th speech, but he is the sine qua non of what happened at the capitol.
Yes, sorry I meant to add that caveat, because yeah maybe it wasn't 'imminent' incitement under the legal definition at least per popehat's explanations, but he 100% did rev this up over the past five and a half years of basically inviting his people to kick the asses of anyone who's against him.
It's honestly probably a better count that he refused to authorize support for the capitol police in any way.
Yeah, there's a totality of events that give him a lot of culpability, from spending months/years spinning this up, to interfering with the planning, to slow-walking the attempts to calm things down (and if reports are true that only happened when his aides all but forced him to). I just can't interpret this as anything but him wanting shit to go down more-or-less like it did. I can only assume that the one thing he didn't actually want was for someone to kill a cop, but only because he presumably thought the cops wouldn't even try to stop it.
One of the most interesting (not most important but most interesting) facts that came out of the capitol riot is that most of the rioters were shocked and appalled by how aggressive the police response to them was! (Unlike the rest of us, who were drawing contrasts between the capitol riot and the BLM protests.) They apparently really thought the police would side with them.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:31
dhex wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:15 Are there consequences in treating people like they have no agency? Because that's the core narrative here, at least media-wise.
They have agency but so does the President. We can hold that fuckhead accountable while also acknowledging that he only played a part. A hitman has agency, but you're still getting fitted for that orange jumpsuit if you tell him you'll give him a couple grand to knock off the missus.
Yeah holding Pootus accountable for his part in the lead up to the insurrection is not mutually exclusive from holding the MAGA yobbos accountable for their part in actually doing it.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Jadagul wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 15:59One of the most interesting (not most important but most interesting) facts that came out of the capitol riot is that most of the rioters were shocked and appalled by how aggressive the police response to them was! (Unlike the rest of us, who were drawing contrasts between the capitol riot and the BLM protests.) They apparently really thought the police would side with them.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Is Pelosi talking about throwing people out of the house? Is that what I'm supposed to be taking from her remarks earlier?
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Saw this on reddit today -- a screenshot of a tweet Rep. Boebert made on Dec. 16, saying "Save the date: January 6, 2021"
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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We're just finding out how bad the riot really was [dated Jan. 16]
...Every day since, as more videos and reporting have emerged, it’s become clear how dangerous the insurrection truly was. As my colleague Elaine Godfrey, who was in the crowd, wrote, “The violence could have been even worse. Some of the rioters clearly wanted it to be.” This was more than a group of people swept up in the emotions of the moment. Within the mob were radicals plotting to kill or kidnap the vice president and members of Congress, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The rioters came within moments of catching up to Vice President Mike Pence.

And the violence was far worse than first reported. One Capitol Police officer died following the assault, another died by suicide soon after, and dozens of officers were injured, some seriously.

We also now know more about President Donald Trump’s response. While it was clear from the start that he had incited the crowd, further reporting has indicated that he watched the attempted coup with delight. He actively resisted calling out the National Guard, a task that reportedly fell to the besieged Pence. He was induced by his horrified staff to condemn the mob, but reportedly regrets doing so....

-snip-
Under almost no circumstances would the insurrection have succeeded at overturning the election, though that doesn’t lessen the gravity of the attempted coup. But it could have been much worse. A firefight could have broken out between police and putschists. Members of Congress could have been taken hostage or killed. Pelosi could have been shot and killed. Pence could have been lynched. The insurrectionists were there because the president of the United States lied to them, claiming that the election had been stolen and that Pence could save Trump’s presidency, and because he had demanded that they act. “We fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore,” he said that day....
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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A few of us here once had a chat about how much we dislike those "consequences" dreams where you have to deal with the aftermath of some cataclysmically dumb, or even ultra-evil, decision which your real waking self would NEVER be dumb or bad enough to do.

I thought about this after reading about Riley J. Williams, a 22-year-old young woman wanted not just for rioting inside the Capitol, but allegedly stealing Speaker Pelosi's computer with the explicit goal of selling it to a foreign intelligence service. [Shudder] I'm not saying I feel sorry for her, exactly, because she is only in this alleged situation after making an alleged series of horrendously bad choices, but ... yikes.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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If Reality Winner got five years, that chick better get at least 15.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Slip inside a sleeping bag.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Slip inside a sleeping bag.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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A Wisconsinite doing dumb shit was drunk rather than ideological?

This is my shocked face.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Image
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Woooo, I wonder what this means regarding the chances of Trump's impeachment being approved by the Senate as well as the House? Mitch McConnell, speaking on the Senate floor, says the rioters were "provoked by the president and other powerful people."
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Yeah. You come at the king you best not miss. McConnell isn't happy but he wants Trump out of the party or so sidelined that he isn't more of a nuisance.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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McConnell knows which way the wind is blowing.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Warren wrote: 19 Jan 2021, 20:17 McConnell knows which way the wind is blowing.
But which way is the wind blowing? Dumbshit knuckle-dragging Trumpanzee Confederates vote in Team Red primaries. That is quite literally the only thing that Red politicians care about. Nobody in his caucus can afford to offend those stupid sacks of shit.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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thoreau wrote: 19 Jan 2021, 20:36
Warren wrote: 19 Jan 2021, 20:17 McConnell knows which way the wind is blowing.
But which way is the wind blowing? Dumbshit knuckle-dragging Trumpanzee Confederates vote in Team Red primaries. That is quite literally the only thing that Red politicians care about. Nobody in his caucus can afford to offend those stupid sacks of shit.
McConnell is 78 and just got reelected for another six years. I don't think he's at all worried about Trump, though he might reasonably be worried about some of his fanatical minions taking a potshot at him. Republican congressmen, otoh, have plenty to worry about, but that vote is over.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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I'm taking for granted that of course McConnell knows things about the Capitol riot which us ordinary folk haven't learned yet. It's possible he said that in reference to things SO incredibly bad, even the Trumpiest of Trumpster Republicans would have to admit he's at fault (assuming anything could get through to them at this point).
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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I guess I'm just not willing to get my hopes up about McConnell. It's fucking Mitch McConnell.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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thoreau wrote: 19 Jan 2021, 21:32 I guess I'm just not willing to get my hopes up about McConnell. It's fucking Mitch McConnell.
Same here. I'm just saying he has no reason to have personal political fear of Trump.
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