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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:55
by Shem
Jennifer wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:44
Shem wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:36
Jennifer wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:28 The Capitol Police were seriously understaffed that day, compared to just about any other time ANY sort of public protest was planned there. Something definitely stinks about this.
The police
I am not usually one to believe in capital-c "conspiracies," but -- I really think that in time we'll find out that various members of congress and/or paid staff somewhere in that building were indeed in on the plot. I am particularly suspicious of that Rep. Boebert, who tweeted "1776" that morning, and live-tweeted Pelosi's movements while the mob went through the corridors.

ETA: Cross-posted with your second comment. Yep, something definitely stinks here.
Isn't it great when an Android glitch winds up cutting through the veil of the universe.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:56
by thoreau
Jennifer wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:54
thoreau wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:53 Boebert is a piece of shit who should be expelled for supporting insurrection, but she didn't actually tweet Pelosi's location. She tweeter that Pelosi was no longer in the room. I doubt that anyone knew where she was going, including the people escorting her. They probably just knew to get her to the next stop and then someone else would take over, so info on her location would be restricted.
True; I misspoke regarding that. Still, IMO< what she did tweet was bad enough to justify the police looking into her behavior.

Also, I just-now saw that Twitter has locked Boebert's account until after the inauguration, just in case.
It's definitely bad enough to cast suspicion on her. It wouldn't shock me if she was up to more.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 15:07
by Jennifer
By the way, the /capitolconsequences subreddit is a good place to look for the latest news on this topic.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 15:40
by JD
Highway wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:37
thoreau wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 13:39 "We were doing routine maintenance and since the replacement parts were caught in a black hole of paperwork overseen by a median federal worker we decided to just delay installation for six to eight months" is something I could totally see. It would also leave a paper trail.

If it's something else....dear God.
You would also think that, if they have panic buttons set up in congresspersons' offices, and they know that there is maintenance they need to do that puts them out of commission for an extended period of time that 1) the staffers in the office would know that they are out of order and 2) that the entity in charge of security would set up a replacement or backup temporary system.

It could be bureaucratic screwup, but the bureaucracy is also supposed to be set up to deal with these things in the first place.
You would hope so, but the Esso Longford gas explosion was caused by (to simplify greatly) somebody shutting down a piece of equipment that was normally in operation, and not properly logging it. ("Olsson and Wijgers looked in the supervisors' log book to find some reason for the bypass valve being tagged but found no reference to it. It was normal practice to give some explanation in the log book if there was a specific instruction not to operate something. A decision was made by Olsson and Wijgers to remove the lock and tag and open the TRC3B bypass ...") End result, two people dead and eight injured, the entire state left without natural gas for almost three weeks, A$1.3 billion economic damages. They were only able to piece together what happened by interrogating people later.

Or the Piper Alpha disaster, in which somebody did fill out the paperwork but maybe not correctly, then it was apparently not handled properly. ("I am not satisfied that the way in which [Mr. Rankin] had filled in the PTW would convey to Mr. Vernon that the job was suspended. However, whether the permit showed the job as suspended or completed, it fell to Mr. Vernon as the incoming lead operator to have the work site checked. The practice had developed that the lead operator would sometimes sign the permit, whether completed or suspended, before having the work site checked.") End result, 167 dead, £1.7 billion damages. As above on the interrogation.

Or the Byford Dolphin incident, in which the procedure was basically, "well, everybody knows the right order to do things in, so that's good enough, right?" and we'll never know exactly what happened because the people at the center of it got turned into hamburger.

Anyway, the lesson is never assume that there is a good procedure or that it's followed correctly. The human capacity for laziness and screwups is unbounded.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 16:54
by JD
Jennifer wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:44
Shem wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:36
Jennifer wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 14:28 The Capitol Police were seriously understaffed that day, compared to just about any other time ANY sort of public protest was planned there. Something definitely stinks about this.
The police
I am not usually one to believe in capital-c "conspiracies," but -- I really think that in time we'll find out that various members of congress and/or paid staff somewhere in that building were indeed in on the plot. I am particularly suspicious of that Rep. Boebert, who tweeted "1776" that morning, and live-tweeted Pelosi's movements while the mob went through the corridors.

ETA: Cross-posted with your second comment. Yep, something definitely stinks here.
I would caution against going in on conspiracy theories. The whole cause of this thing was a conspiracy theory, after all. And there is some suggestion that the negative reaction to the heavy police/military presence at earlier events caused the authorities to want to go with a lighter touch this time...which proved to be a real bad choice. Do we even have any real evidence that there was a specific "plot" in the sense of "we are planning to invade Congress and kill/take hostages/whatever", as opposed to a bunch of red state yahoos whipping each other up?

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 17:20
by Shem
JD wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 16:54 Do we even have any real evidence that there was a specific "plot" in the sense of "we are planning to invade Congress and kill/take hostages/whatever", as opposed to a bunch of red state yahoos whipping each other up?
It's a fine line between the two, but I'd say there's more than enough evidence to warrant an FBI investigation. Check the date on that; the "lol look at the rubes" tone of the article feels a lot different in retrospect.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 17:25
by Ellie
Did anybody see the thread on Twitter about how for security's sake you have to assume there were foreign agents in amongst the rioters? (I can't find it at the moment). They were pointing out how many places in the Capitol they would have had unsupervised access to and for how long, and how many things you have to check for (e.g. microphones in the outlets) and assume are compromised (e.g. USB cables replaced with duplicates that have malicious crap built in). It sounds like a nightmare.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 18:03
by Aresen
Ellie wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 17:25 Did anybody see the thread on Twitter about how for security's sake you have to assume there were foreign agents in amongst the rioters? (I can't find it at the moment). They were pointing out how many places in the Capitol they would have had unsupervised access to and for how long, and how many things you have to check for (e.g. microphones in the outlets) and assume are compromised (e.g. USB cables replaced with duplicates that have malicious crap built in). It sounds like a nightmare.
Well, they have to replace their information source since the previous one will no longer be in position after January 20th.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 18:16
by thoreau
JD wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 16:54I would caution against going in on conspiracy theories. The whole cause of this thing was a conspiracy theory, after all. And there is some suggestion that the negative reaction to the heavy police/military presence at earlier events caused the authorities to want to go with a lighter touch this time...which proved to be a real bad choice.
True. And God knows other tragic events have been followed by rumors that didn't pan out.

Still, there's a lot of ground between "No bad cops in the Capitol" and "Massive conspiracy on a scale comparable to Qanon." I would tend to assume broken security equipment can be explained by normal federal fuckups (I've worked in federal labs...), if for no other reason than that ripping out wires in a building full of security cameras seems pretty risky for a person who values his pension.

On the other hand, if a few of the more insane n00b reps (I single out n00bs because they haven't yet been assimilated) provided info to rioters that they had demonstrated close affinities with, well, that's certainly within the realm of plausibility, and worthy of an investigation.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 19:33
by Highway
I think that the subject of online death threats needs to be revisited from the previous conventional wisdom of "Well, most of them aren't true threats, so we don't really need to do anything about them." Both because they seem to be increasing in number, and therefore seem to be far more of a go-to kind of threat, and because it certainly seems like there are more crazies who are willing to cross lines. And that's probably a longer discussion for another day.

With all that said...

Hearing the Republicans starting to whine about the crazies that they've whipped up over the past years turning on them and making them scared of voting for impeachment has a real "But I never thought the leopards would eat MY face!!!" feel.


Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 08:47
by nicole
Forming? Worry? Lol


Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 10:10
by Kolohe
Shem wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 17:20
JD wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 16:54 Do we even have any real evidence that there was a specific "plot" in the sense of "we are planning to invade Congress and kill/take hostages/whatever", as opposed to a bunch of red state yahoos whipping each other up?
It's a fine line between the two, but I'd say there's more than enough evidence to warrant an FBI investigation. Check the date on that; the "lol look at the rubes" tone of the article feels a lot different in retrospect.
That’s a helluva find.
Eva Malecki, a spokesperson for the US Capitol Police, declined to comment on the MAGA fans’ thought experiments but tells Washingtonian that “While we do not discuss the means, methods, or specific resources used to carry out our protective responsibilities, the United States Capitol Police has comprehensive security plans in place and we continuously monitor and assess new and emerging threats, with the overall goal of keeping those within the Capitol Complex safe and secure.”
“Do you, though?”

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 10:31
by lunchstealer
Kolohe wrote: 14 Jan 2021, 10:10
Shem wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 17:20
JD wrote: 13 Jan 2021, 16:54 Do we even have any real evidence that there was a specific "plot" in the sense of "we are planning to invade Congress and kill/take hostages/whatever", as opposed to a bunch of red state yahoos whipping each other up?
It's a fine line between the two, but I'd say there's more than enough evidence to warrant an FBI investigation. Check the date on that; the "lol look at the rubes" tone of the article feels a lot different in retrospect.
That’s a helluva find.
Eva Malecki, a spokesperson for the US Capitol Police, declined to comment on the MAGA fans’ thought experiments but tells Washingtonian that “While we do not discuss the means, methods, or specific resources used to carry out our protective responsibilities, the United States Capitol Police has comprehensive security plans in place and we continuously monitor and assess new and emerging threats, with the overall goal of keeping those within the Capitol Complex safe and secure.”
“Do you, though?”
Narrator: They didn't

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 14:44
by thoreau
A guy with 5 olympic swimming medals was arrested for participating in the riot.

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-sieg ... 877b1639d6

Dude tried to flee on foot instead of taking to the water.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 14:52
by lunchstealer
They named him Klete Keller. His parents hated him from birth. Also his sister is Kayla Keller. I really don't want to find out what their middle names are.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 15:54
by Pham Nuwen
Does .... does it start with ... with a K?

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 16:12
by Jennifer
(Facepalm) This is from Wikipedia's page about Ku Klux Keller:
He was able to be recognized, in part, because of his height [6'6"], the fact that he was wearing a U.S. Olympic team jacket, and that his face was unobstructed in the video
Undeniably a good swimmer, but not very bright.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 16:15
by D.A. Ridgely
thoreau wrote: 14 Jan 2021, 14:44 A guy with 5 olympic swimming medals was arrested for participating in the riot.

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-sieg ... 877b1639d6

Dude tried to flee on foot instead of taking to the water.
Turns out he dropped out of USC after two years, so you only have to donate half as much to his defense fund.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 17:08
by thoreau
lunchstealer wrote: 14 Jan 2021, 14:52 They named him Klete Keller. His parents hated him from birth. Also his sister is Kayla Keller. I really don't want to find out what their middle names are.
Wiki says his middle initial is D. God I hope they're right.

I know three dudes (brothers) with first and last initial K. One of them has middle initial W, thank God. The others, um, well, their father was apparently a bad guy.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 14 Jan 2021, 17:34
by Aresen
Jennifer wrote: 14 Jan 2021, 16:12 (Facepalm) This is from Wikipedia's page about Ku Klux Keller:
He was able to be recognized, in part, because of his height [6'6"], the fact that he was wearing a U.S. Olympic team jacket, and that his face was unobstructed in the video
Undeniably a good swimmer, but not very bright.
It was the chlorine in the pool.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 15 Jan 2021, 11:31
by Shem

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
by lunchstealer
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
by dhex
Signal is being wonky bc they added like 50m new installs in a day or two

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 15 Jan 2021, 12:13
by Hugh Akston
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.
Trump has spent four years inciting the crowd. They may have been planning this before his Jan 6th speech, but he is the sine qua non of what happened at the capitol.

Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Posted: 15 Jan 2021, 12:27
by lunchstealer
Hugh Akston wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:13
lunchstealer wrote: 15 Jan 2021, 12:12
Which TBF does imply that Trump didn't immediately incite that part of the crowd, but may've triggered enough of the rest of the crowd that they had cover that they otherwise might not have had.
Trump has spent four years inciting the crowd. They may have been planning this before his Jan 6th speech, but he is the sine qua non of what happened at the capitol.
Yes, sorry I meant to add that caveat, because yeah maybe it wasn't 'imminent' incitement under the legal definition at least per popehat's explanations, but he 100% did rev this up over the past five and a half years of basically inviting his people to kick the asses of anyone who's against him.