The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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thoreau
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Post by thoreau »

If they spent 4-5 years as a mechanic or whatever other technical specialty away from battle, well, they may be fine. They'll figure out civilian life in whatever trade. But if they spent those years training to fight, saw some battle, and now have PTSD, these are guys who are trying to get over a psychological problem in a very different environment. It's two adjustments stacked on top of each other.

Academia is totalizing, grad school more than undergrad. For all the problems of colleges, undergrad is seen as a rite of passage and so employers, families, and friends mostly know how to deal with new grads, even if they grumble about it.

Grad school takes you when your friends are all exploring The Real World and initiates you into the next tier of the world you spent the previous few years in, and increases your hours on campus while narrowing your social circle. This is just one of the many reasons why the decision to go to grad school should not be undertaken lightly.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

thoreau wrote: 07 Feb 2021, 16:29 If they spent 4-5 years as a mechanic or whatever other technical specialty away from battle, well, they may be fine. They'll figure out civilian life in whatever trade. But if they spent those years training to fight, saw some battle, and now have PTSD, these are guys who are trying to get over a psychological problem in a very different environment. It's two adjustments stacked on top of each other.

Academia is totalizing, grad school more than undergrad. For all the problems of colleges, undergrad is seen as a rite of passage and so employers, families, and friends mostly know how to deal with new grads, even if they grumble about it.

Grad school takes you when your friends are all exploring The Real World and initiates you into the next tier of the world you spent the previous few years in, and increases your hours on campus while narrowing your social circle. This is just one of the many reasons why the decision to go to grad school should not be undertaken lightly.
Which is why I specified career military and combat veterans and why I likened the effect of military culture to that of academic culture, not penal institutionalization, the most apt analogy to which would be mental institutionalization. In the case of the latter two, one gets next to no choices about anything, e.g., what to eat, when to eat it, when to exercise, what you may buy or own, etc., etc., one's dependency on rules and rituals and outside authorities making every decision really is total and the culture shock of leaving those institutions is powerful enough that many can't cope.

In both academia and the military, insofar as I could tell as an outside observer with some inside access, you have plenty of options but many of those options will be narrowed by their respective cultural norms, norms that are either explained to the novice or the novice must figure out. Over time, those become internalized to the point where if and when someone leaves those cultures there are ingrained thought patterns and assumptions, many of which may be benign but others of which one must be willing to unlearn in order to thrive in the larger culture.
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dhex
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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The larger theory of persuasion issue is the need to pathologize believing dumbfuck shit, and thusly having equated it with temporary insanity opening the door for "deprogramming".
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Shem
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 07 Feb 2021, 16:09
Shem wrote: 07 Feb 2021, 15:33 Making it all about PTSD misses the biggest problem. Most of the newly out vet issues don't occur because of PTSD, they happen because guys spend their entire adult lives in a totalizing institution, then they get out and suddenly there's no expansive rule system to tell them exactly how to advance in their careers, and no support system of other people serving to watch their private lives. 7 years of vets coming through the door, and it's gotten really clear to me that more than a few of them need the same sort of reintegration as people coming off long prison sentences.
For career military and combat veterans, sure. There are programs for retiring officers ("Don't wear your military tie and shoes to an interview," etc.) But the average length of service for noncoms is just under seven years. Most never see combat and most spend most of those years in more of a 9 to 5 life than civilians whose sum knowledge of the military comes from war movies.

The sort of noncom or officer who serves more than eight to ten years do so because they fit in military culture. The rest are paying off school obligations or getting some career training cheaply, that sort of thing, and they're happy to put it behind them when the time comes.

If anything, I'd say that 'totalizing institution' is closer to academia than prison. Moving from that culture to "the real world" is disorienting but so are any number of other significant life events. *shrug*
I'm know about the programs; I was a teacher in one for 18 months, and they're far from just for officers, at least these days. The guys getting out might be happy to put it behind them, but that doesn't mean they have the practical knowledge to be able to do that. Take someone who probably never had a job beyond "teenager spending money employment" before the service, spend anywhere from 4 to 20 years telling them they have a pretty good handle on "the way things work," then throw all that out and put them into competition in a job market that's frustratingly opaque even for people who spent their career in it, and you're going to wind up with a disturbing number of people who look back on the period of their life where everything was straightforward, and go looking for something to make it simple again. Especially when the TAP classes are as shitty as they can sometimes be. (There's a reason the local base got outside people in to teach the job search parts). Most of the guys get acclimated (or go to work in civilian DoD employment, but either way) but even 5 or 10% having issues is still a huge number of people failing to thrive.
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Warren
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Shem wrote: 08 Feb 2021, 03:19 I'm know about the programs; I was a teacher in one for 18 months, and they're far from just for officers, at least these days. The guys getting out might be happy to put it behind them, but that doesn't mean they have the practical knowledge to be able to do that. Take someone who probably never had a job beyond "teenager spending money employment" before the service, spend anywhere from 4 to 20 years telling them they have a pretty good handle on "the way things work," then throw all that out and put them into competition in a job market that's frustratingly opaque even for people who spent their career in it, and you're going to wind up with a disturbing number of people who look back on the period of their life where everything was straightforward, and go looking for something to make it simple again. Especially when the TAP classes are as shitty as they can sometimes be. (There's a reason the local base got outside people in to teach the job search parts). Most of the guys get acclimated (or go to work in civilian DoD employment, but either way) but even 5 or 10% having issues is still a huge number of people failing to thrive.
Yeah I dunno. There are definitely people that can thrive in the military because they need the external discipline and are lost in the civilian world without it. I saw plenty of that. But whether that's the reason, or some other reason, a person enlists, it was my experience that 80% of the enlisted ranks only just passed HS/GED that the military has set for it's minimum cognitive bar.

So yes, there's a problem moving from one highly structured environment to an unstructured one, but the underlying problem is that too many former military are just not capable of dealing with being self sufficient no matter what kind of training and support you give them.
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thoreau
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Warren wrote: 08 Feb 2021, 16:49 So yes, there's a problem moving from one highly structured environment to an unstructured one, but the underlying problem is that too many former military are just not capable of dealing with being self sufficient no matter what kind of training and support you give them.
I've occasionally heard speculation that this was why warriors were once a caste (either in name or in practice) in many societies, and perhaps why pensions are such an important part of military compensation for those who make it a career. You take a guy, teach him to live in a particular way that develops, channels, and controls aggression, put him through terrible things, and then you pretty much can't expect him to just suddenly go and be a farmer or tailor or whatever. It's not just about whether he'll be sufficiently productive in another venture, it's about whether a guy who's been through hell will be able to survive away from his brothers that he went to war with. You keep him surrounded with those guys who've been there with him, he builds his subsequent social life around that segment of society, and when the PTSD hits he can look around and see the comforting faces of the guys who've always had his back.

Now we train people to live and function a certain way during formative years of young adulthood, put them through hell, then send them back home and expect them to be like everyone else.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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I mean, he had me until the last tweet — obviously it 100% does not matter what actually happened.
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Re: The capitol insurrection and its aftermath

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Walsh is generally a dumbfuck but yes the desperation to make it 9/11 times a thousand is starting to fall apart
"i ran over the cat and didnt stop just carried on with tears in my eyes joose driving my way to work." - God
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