The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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nicole
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Jennifer wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 17:57 I can''t see the first tweet you posted, Nicole, and I share Shem's bafflement regarding what point you intended to make with your second. (Remember, especially regarding this particular thread topic, I have NEVER taken the attitude "Dems are awesome and wonderful," but "For all the many problems with the Democrats, the Republicans are far worse.")
By what metric? The death toll and property damage from left-leaning protests last year are orders of magnitude worse than what happened last week. The Dems are obviously not doing better at covid. So I'm just struggling to imagine a metric where Republicans are worse other than "symbolism that bugs progressives."
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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nicole wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 09:22
Jennifer wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 17:57 I can''t see the first tweet you posted, Nicole, and I share Shem's bafflement regarding what point you intended to make with your second. (Remember, especially regarding this particular thread topic, I have NEVER taken the attitude "Dems are awesome and wonderful," but "For all the many problems with the Democrats, the Republicans are far worse.")
By what metric? The death toll and property damage from left-leaning protests last year are orders of magnitude worse than what happened last week. The Dems are obviously not doing better at covid. So I'm just struggling to imagine a metric where Republicans are worse other than "symbolism that bugs progressives."
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

nicole wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 09:22
Jennifer wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 17:57 I can''t see the first tweet you posted, Nicole, and I share Shem's bafflement regarding what point you intended to make with your second. (Remember, especially regarding this particular thread topic, I have NEVER taken the attitude "Dems are awesome and wonderful," but "For all the many problems with the Democrats, the Republicans are far worse.")
By what metric? The death toll and property damage from left-leaning protests last year are orders of magnitude worse than what happened last week. The Dems are obviously not doing better at covid. So I'm just struggling to imagine a metric where Republicans are worse other than "symbolism that bugs progressives."
Something like 27 people are documented as dying, mostly at police hands (and guns), over the course of protests that happened in pretty much every major city in the US over a period of several months. Meanwhile, one Team Ted protest at one building on one day reached nearly 20% that death toll. Not selling me on equivalence, there, even if you ignore the tiny little "protesting against police brutality" vs. "trying to attack Congress to keep Trump in power and/or play out their batshit conspiracy coup" distinction.

And Team Blue not, you know, actively undermining and sabotaging COVID federal response (and confiscating state supplies on occasion) and not making pandemic response a culture war battle and choosing the side of the virus (even to the point of openly calling their gatherings super-spreader events the last couple of months)? I'm going to call that doing better on COVID.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Eric the .5b wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 11:14
nicole wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 09:22
Jennifer wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 17:57 I can''t see the first tweet you posted, Nicole, and I share Shem's bafflement regarding what point you intended to make with your second. (Remember, especially regarding this particular thread topic, I have NEVER taken the attitude "Dems are awesome and wonderful," but "For all the many problems with the Democrats, the Republicans are far worse.")
By what metric? The death toll and property damage from left-leaning protests last year are orders of magnitude worse than what happened last week. The Dems are obviously not doing better at covid. So I'm just struggling to imagine a metric where Republicans are worse other than "symbolism that bugs progressives."
Something like 27 people are documented as dying, mostly at police hands (and guns), over the course of protests that happened in pretty much every major city in the US over a period of several months. Meanwhile, one Team Ted protest at one building on one day reached nearly 20% that death toll. Not selling me on equivalence, there, even if you ignore the tiny little "protesting against police brutality" vs. "trying to attack Congress to keep Trump in power and/or play out their batshit conspiracy coup" distinction.
Not to mention the fact that the protests last summer erupted because of an actual murder committed by a cop on camera while his fellow officers protected him.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Things that make me tired in the never ending cycle of equivalence/false equivalence and in the related space of whataboutisms.

- We forget to talk about the thing itself. If somebody built cages and used them X amount to deter immigration and somebody else used the cages 2X to deter immigration, that second party can't say "who built the cages" without implicating their own participation in the bad thing itself which is separation cages as a mode of deterrence. Not long ago I thought it relatively uncontroversial that "burning things down and physical violence as a mode of protest" is not something to be endorsed. I thought it uncontroversial that law enforcement should be engaged to prevent destruction in such circumstances, for all I recognize disputes about use of force. I thought it relatively uncontroversial that a large group of people has participants coming from various perspectives and you have to only hold accountable people who do bad things not whole groups who say things that sound similar. People getting "riled up" by marxist nonsense rhetoric and people getting "riled up" by trumpian nonsense rhetoric have the choice to stay home, to protest, or to protest plus violence. We should only care about The Bad Thing which is that last thing, and the people who did the bad thing are the people who did the bad thing, not people using similar sounding language or people sitting next to them nor people posting things online or even people giving speeches.

- A and B events may not be equivalent but they can have very significant features of overlap that would be obvious to anyone not looking to defend their team at all costs. It is totally ok to accept areas of overlap and dispute the significance of areas of difference. That is, to say something is not equivalent doesn't mean you get to treat all similarity as zero value. Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously. Literally trying to stop the certification of an election seems really important as a distinction. The idea that sub elements of protests have violent intent seems a pretty clear area of overlap. Reasonable use of force guidelines seems like an area of overlap. I don't think you can credibly argue for the right use of force if you aren't willing to apply the principle to both cases. Saw someone elsewhere arguing that these groups need to be monitored. Ok. If you want to do that be sure thats what you want because "people agitating for revolution minded destruction" includes a lot of people from summer 2020.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Things that make me tired in the never ending cycle of equivalence/false equivalence and in the related space of whataboutisms.

- We forget to talk about the thing itself. If somebody built cages and used them X amount to deter immigration and somebody else used the cages 2X to deter immigration, that second party can't say "who built the cages" without implicating their own participation in the bad thing itself which is separation cages as a mode of deterrence. Not long ago I thought it relatively uncontroversial that "burning things down and physical violence as a mode of protest" is not something to be endorsed. I thought it uncontroversial that law enforcement should be engaged to prevent destruction in such circumstances, for all I recognize disputes about use of force. I thought it relatively uncontroversial that a large group of people has participants coming from various perspectives and you have to only hold accountable people who do bad things not whole groups who say things that sound similar. People getting "riled up" by marxist nonsense rhetoric and people getting "riled up" by trumpian nonsense rhetoric have the choice to stay home, to protest, or to protest plus violence. We should only care about The Bad Thing which is that last thing, and the people who did the bad thing are the people who did the bad thing, not people using similar sounding language or people sitting next to them nor people posting things online or even people giving speeches.

- A and B events may not be equivalent but they can have very significant features of overlap that would be obvious to anyone not looking to defend their team at all costs. It is totally ok to accept areas of overlap and dispute the significance of areas of difference. That is, to say something is not equivalent doesn't mean you get to treat all similarity as zero value. Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously. Literally trying to stop the certification of an election seems really important as a distinction. The idea that sub elements of protests have violent intent seems a pretty clear area of overlap. Reasonable use of force guidelines seems like an area of overlap. I don't think you can credibly argue for the right use of force if you aren't willing to apply the principle to both cases. Saw someone elsewhere arguing that these groups need to be monitored. Ok. If you want to do that be sure thats what you want because "people agitating for revolution minded destruction" includes a lot of people from summer 2020.
Dude. You're focusing on all the wrong things and are therefore unacceptable to all of America.

Just pick a side (either A or B exclusively) and start posting "The other side is made up of poopy pants" on at least three social media platforms at least once every other day. That is the only acceptable behavior to half of America.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by thoreau »

Aresen wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:12
Eric the .5b wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 11:14
nicole wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 09:22
Jennifer wrote: 08 Jan 2021, 17:57 I can''t see the first tweet you posted, Nicole, and I share Shem's bafflement regarding what point you intended to make with your second. (Remember, especially regarding this particular thread topic, I have NEVER taken the attitude "Dems are awesome and wonderful," but "For all the many problems with the Democrats, the Republicans are far worse.")
By what metric? The death toll and property damage from left-leaning protests last year are orders of magnitude worse than what happened last week. The Dems are obviously not doing better at covid. So I'm just struggling to imagine a metric where Republicans are worse other than "symbolism that bugs progressives."
Something like 27 people are documented as dying, mostly at police hands (and guns), over the course of protests that happened in pretty much every major city in the US over a period of several months. Meanwhile, one Team Ted protest at one building on one day reached nearly 20% that death toll. Not selling me on equivalence, there, even if you ignore the tiny little "protesting against police brutality" vs. "trying to attack Congress to keep Trump in power and/or play out their batshit conspiracy coup" distinction.
Not to mention the fact that the protests last summer erupted because of an actual murder committed by a cop on camera while his fellow officers protected him.
It is true that the Capitol protests were worse on a per capita basis and were not responding to an actual injustice. Nonetheless, moral high ground is a precious thing, and I know too many people who freaked out at any hint of criticizing the violence and arson. You'd have to layer on disclaimer after disclaimer about the cops before you could even begin to say that burning down a business district is a bad idea.

A friend has relatives who lived less than a block from a gas station that burned down. They were scared to go outside, but scared to stay home lest the fire spread or the rioters come to them. They told someone that fear and got chewed out for their white privilege. Because they were afraid of arson during a riot.

Meanwhile, some of their extended family are Asian immigrants. They are taking notes and learning things about US racial politics.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 15:28They were scared to go outside, but scared to stay home lest the fire spread or the rioters come to them.
Fire's one thing, but who exactly has had "the rioters come to them"? People have been shot at on their front porches by riot police, but who's been attacked in their house?
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously.
I feel like there's a decent-sized overlap between BLM riots and "Qultists smashing federal buildings" riots, but almost no overlap between either of those two and what happened at the Capitol. Though clearly I find the Qult idiotic and repugnant, the federal building stuff was focused on property, and the destruction thereof. For whatever reason, American protests tend to get kinetic, and a lot of groups on both sides destroy property when things get too heated. But the Capitol stuff wasn't about expelling rage on a building. It was about hunting down and murdering Congress. They built a a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for. They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Eric the .5b wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:33
thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 15:28They were scared to go outside, but scared to stay home lest the fire spread or the rioters come to them.
Fire's one thing, but who exactly has had "the rioters come to them"? People have been shot at on their front porches by riot police, but who's been attacked in their house?
I'm not saying that their fears have a sound data-driven basis, but I can't fault people for being scared when they look out the window, hear the angry mob, and see the fires less than a block away. In that moment the statistical tables will not be their first recourse.

There's a valid conversation to be had with them about relative risks, but any conversation with them should start with some empathy, not a scolding about their privilege. Privilege manifests in all sorts of ways, but a person a half block from a burning building during a riot is not enjoying much benefit from privilege in that moment, and their fear deserves empathy, not a scolding.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
I go back and forth on this. I completely agree that Zip-Tie Guy and his ilk went in with intent to kill, and I hope they go away for a long time.

I am not sure whether they saw themselves as smashing the system or restoring it. I fear that many of them honestly believe that more ballots were cast for Trump and some shadowy force then tampered with the results. If they believe that, they aren't trying to burn down the system, they're trying to defeat its enemies.

Doesn't make them right, doesn't make it equivalent to other protests, but since you said that they want the system razed, well, I'm not sure about that. I think they see themselves as protecting the rightful system from those who perverted it.

For all the differences between the Capitol insurrection and the more radically pessimistic elements of the left, I think there's one thing they actually agree on: They agree that these right-wing reactionaries with pale skin are The True Face Of America. The guys who stormed the Capitol believe that they represent a majority who voted for Trump in the key states and thus, under the rules of the game, are part of the majority backing the rightful winner. Likewise, the more radically pessimistic elements of the left believe that reactionary white people are the dominant majority in a literally white supremacist system. Under that analysis, wins by Barack Hussein Obama and Kamala Devi Harris (using the full names to emphasize the outsider status) are anomalies that require careful explanation, not signs of real promise and progress in a complex and mixed society. Likewise, Trump's 2016 win requires no head-scratching, no soul-searching, not hunt for malfeasance or tampering, as Trump represented the true spirit of America and the inevitable product of letting this society vote in a fair election. (The only head-scratcher would be Clinton's popular vote win.)
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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I know some Trump voters who would never storm the Capitol (and for interpersonal harmony I hope to never find out what they think about it, unless they offer me a pleasant surprise), but nonetheless believe a lot of lies. They believe that there was no economic recovery under Obama. They believe that unemployment numbers and GDP numbers were terrible under Obama. They truly believe these things. Never mind that such statements could be easily refuted by reading the WSJ or browsing the Fox Business website. Never mind that they have advanced degrees (MD in a few cases, MS in Engineering in another). They believe these things because primetime Fox political talk show hosts (not to be confused with Fox Business reporters) spent years telling them that nothing good happened under Obama. They believe these things because they need to believe these things.

So I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that a lot of people sincerely believe that massive voter fraud happened. They believe lies that would be so much easier to refute; why not believe lies that Fox primetime hosts at least insinuate if not explicitly state? And if they believe these things, then they might well believe that shutting down the vote count was not a betrayal of the system but a defense of it.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37
JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously.
I feel like there's a decent-sized overlap between BLM riots and "Qultists smashing federal buildings" riots, but almost no overlap between either of those two and what happened at the Capitol. Though clearly I find the Qult idiotic and repugnant, the federal building stuff was focused on property, and the destruction thereof. For whatever reason, American protests tend to get kinetic, and a lot of groups on both sides destroy property when things get too heated. But the Capitol stuff wasn't about expelling rage on a building. It was about hunting down and murdering Congress. They built a a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for. They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
Unless you're claiming that everyone in the DC insurrection was there to murder legislators or that no one in the summer protests was torching police precincts and looting stores with the intent to raze the system, then you're kind of making Jason's point for him.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Warren come on.

Not to give T any ammunition or anything but it sounds a lot like you are acting like a physicist. You know the math on it so you are oversimplifying a LOT of variables. And wow it works. Theres your answer. Not so hard.

And it's wrong.

But it's hard as fuck. It's people. To many variables. It feels like everything that holds the system together keeps getting fucked with. Not the overall society. The riots and fires were the same in the 60s. I've seen those pictures and read some of those stories. Are we as a group going to point out, "Yeah those civil rights being enforced are good but what about all the property damage? Unconscionable!! And some people even died!!"

I'm trying to understand you brother but it makes no sense no matter how I try to put on your hat. And to a lesser extent, JasonL.

I'm really trying man. I swear. But I don't. It's way more complicated and I dont understand how you two can look at the summer and only see some property damage.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:08 (The only head-scratcher would be Clinton's popular vote win.)
No mystery there; Trump said THAT was fraudulent too, remember? (Don't blame you if you forgot; that was literally over 10,000 Trump-lies ago, and who could possibly keep them all straight?)
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Hugh Akston wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:20
Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37
JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously.
I feel like there's a decent-sized overlap between BLM riots and "Qultists smashing federal buildings" riots, but almost no overlap between either of those two and what happened at the Capitol. Though clearly I find the Qult idiotic and repugnant, the federal building stuff was focused on property, and the destruction thereof. For whatever reason, American protests tend to get kinetic, and a lot of groups on both sides destroy property when things get too heated. But the Capitol stuff wasn't about expelling rage on a building. It was about hunting down and murdering Congress. They built a a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for. They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
Unless you're claiming that everyone in the DC insurrection was there to murder legislators or that no one in the summer protests was torching police precincts and looting stores with the intent to raze the system, then you're kind of making Jason's point for him.
According to the FBI, the guy who torched the Minneapolis police precinct was actually a far-right Boogaloo Boy posing as a left-winger.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Jennifer wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:29
thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:08 (The only head-scratcher would be Clinton's popular vote win.)
No mystery there; Trump said THAT was fraudulent too, remember? (Don't blame you if you forgot; that was literally over 10,000 Trump-lies ago, and who could possibly keep them all straight?)
Well, that's the point. If the reactionaries are The True Face Of America then it does indeed follow that her popular vote win was some sort of anomaly rather than the system functioning properly.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Hugh Akston wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:20
Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37
JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously.
I feel like there's a decent-sized overlap between BLM riots and "Qultists smashing federal buildings" riots, but almost no overlap between either of those two and what happened at the Capitol. Though clearly I find the Qult idiotic and repugnant, the federal building stuff was focused on property, and the destruction thereof. For whatever reason, American protests tend to get kinetic, and a lot of groups on both sides destroy property when things get too heated. But the Capitol stuff wasn't about expelling rage on a building. It was about hunting down and murdering Congress. They built a a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for. They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
Unless you're claiming that everyone in the DC insurrection was there to murder legislators or that no one in the summer protests was torching police precincts and looting stores with the intent to raze the system, then you're kind of making Jason's point for him.
I'm saying "joining a mob to break some shit and maybe loot" and "joining a mob to murder specific people" are fundamentally not the same thing in any sense. And, if you're part of a mob chanting "kill Mike Pence" while in the next room from Mike Pence, and you then subsequently tell me "I didn't actually want to kill Mike Pence," I'm not sure what exactly about your behavior warrants the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Hugh Akston »

Jennifer wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:32
Hugh Akston wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:20
Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37
JasonL wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 13:34 Anyone suggesting complete overlap or complete separation of BLM protests and whatever we are calling buffalo dude insurrection isn't really taking analysis seriously.
I feel like there's a decent-sized overlap between BLM riots and "Qultists smashing federal buildings" riots, but almost no overlap between either of those two and what happened at the Capitol. Though clearly I find the Qult idiotic and repugnant, the federal building stuff was focused on property, and the destruction thereof. For whatever reason, American protests tend to get kinetic, and a lot of groups on both sides destroy property when things get too heated. But the Capitol stuff wasn't about expelling rage on a building. It was about hunting down and murdering Congress. They built a a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for. They went in with zip ties and chanted about killing specific people they didn't like. They beat one cop to death, and attacked at least one other with literal American flags. This isn't people who don't like what the system is doing and want to change it. This is people who want the system razed to the ground. That's not the same thing as the other stuff that's been happening, and acting like it is diminishes the severity of what happened on the 6th.
Unless you're claiming that everyone in the DC insurrection was there to murder legislators or that no one in the summer protests was torching police precincts and looting stores with the intent to raze the system, then you're kind of making Jason's point for him.
According to the FBI, the guy who torched the Minneapolis police precinct was actually a far-right Boogaloo Boy posing as a left-winger.
He was captured on video shooting 13 rounds at the police building while people were inside on the night of May 28, according to the complaint, which also said he helped set the building ablaze.
'Helped' implies he did not act alone.

Protestors also tried to burn down a Portland precinct.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:37hey built a gallows outside the Capitol. Think about that; guys showed up with lumber, tools, and rope, and built something to either lynch people, or make them think that's what they were there for.
I'm uncertain on this detail, as it looked pretty ramshackle and flimsy. I'm not sure whether it was any more fit for purpose than those guillotines wheeled out at other protests.

I figured they'd just shoot people if they actually caught anyone.

(I submit that it's shitty for anyone to wheel out execution equipment at a protest, no matter whether it's just a prop or not.)
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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dhex
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by dhex »

Guillotine chic is the worst chic.
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JasonL
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by JasonL »

Nobody like their gallows humor.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Hugh Akston »

Shem wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 17:45 I'm saying "joining a mob to break some shit and maybe loot" and "joining a mob to murder specific people" are fundamentally not the same thing in any sense. And, if you're part of a mob chanting "kill Mike Pence" while in the next room from Mike Pence, and you then subsequently tell me "I didn't actually want to kill Mike Pence," I'm not sure what exactly about your behavior warrants the benefit of the doubt.
How about "joining a mob where some people are threatening/committing crimes while other people are exercising their constitutional right to protest" vs. "joining a mob where some people are exercising their first amendment right to protest while others are threatening/committing crimes?" Fundamentally not the same in any sense or?
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:50
Eric the .5b wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 16:33
thoreau wrote: 11 Jan 2021, 15:28They were scared to go outside, but scared to stay home lest the fire spread or the rioters come to them.
Fire's one thing, but who exactly has had "the rioters come to them"? People have been shot at on their front porches by riot police, but who's been attacked in their house?
I'm not saying that their fears have a sound data-driven basis, but I can't fault people for being scared when they look out the window, hear the angry mob, and see the fires less than a block away. In that moment the statistical tables will not be their first recourse.
And I'm saying that I'm sorry for what your friends went through, but we're supposedly not talking about how much people are afraid of antifa or BLM or Trump or Qanon, because someone is terrified of each of those. We're talking about whether one side or the other is actually worse. Someone's fear of rioters coming for them, whether they're near a demonstration and there's a fire or they're out in the suburbs clutching their guns, is less relevant to that question than whether rioters are actually coming for anyone. As opposed to the Capitol, where they clearly were coming for legislators and Pence.

(Hell, Team Red rioters beat a cop to death. How many cops got beat to death at protests, last year?)
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.
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