Asa's 11 days

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nicole
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Asa's 11 days

Post by nicole »

For the springtime spate of executions planned in Arkansas
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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CW: extreme nutpunch
Windle left Little Rock after graduating law school, carrying trauma that would take years to heal. But she did not shy away from the justice system, going to work at a public defender’s office in New Jersey. In 2015, Windle received an automated message through the VINE Program, a system used by the state of Arkansas to update survivors of crime on post-conviction developments in criminal cases. The governor of Arkansas had set an execution date for the murder of Stacy Errickson; Windle was entitled to attend the victim impact hearing, to counter Williams’s application for clemency. The message was upsetting. Windle had never supported the death penalty, and she resented that the system assumed she did just because she was categorized as a victim. She contacted her old lawyer friends in Little Rock, who put her in touch with the federal public defender. In March, after the governor imposed a new execution date for Williams, she flew back to Arkansas to ask the board to spare his life.
https://theintercept.com/2017/04/14/as- ... -clemency/
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Nothing says caring like seeking vengeance.
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Andrew
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Andrew »

It's the classic prosecutor approach.

1. If the victim wants blood, pound on the table and demand the max punishment because anything less is a slap in the face to the holy, innocent victim and an egregious violation of the victim's rights.

2. If the victim wants leniency, downplay their wishes and ignore them as much as possible. Pound on the table and demand the maximum punishment because justice for society requires it and anything less will lead to Somalia, biblical plagues, and the destruction of America.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by fyodor »

Andrew wrote:It's the classic prosecutor approach.

1. If the victim wants blood, pound on the table and demand the max punishment because anything less is a slap in the face to the holy, innocent victim and an egregious violation of the victim's rights.

2. If the victim wants leniency, downplay their wishes and ignore them as much as possible. Pound on the table and demand the maximum punishment because justice for society requires it and anything less will lead to Somalia, biblical plagues, and the destruction of America.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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I don't want the state to kill them, but it's pretty pathetic that this is working out to be so difficult. Surely they could just buy an excess of standard, mass-marketed anesthesia drugs, and administer an overdose. The hardest part of an anesthesiologist's job is making sure that you don't just suddenly die unexpectedly even while attached to a shitload of monitors and with a large medical team working intently on keeping you alive. I suspect that if anesthesia overdose took so long to kill people then anesthesia would be a much easier job.

Again, I don't want them to kill these guys, but it's pretty pathetic that they can't even figure out how to administer a drug overdose that kills quickly. If they can't even figure out how to kill a man with anesthesia drugs, maybe they aren't competent to sort out who deserves to live and who deserves to die, you know?
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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thoreau wrote:I don't want the state to kill them, but it's pretty pathetic that this is working out to be so difficult. Surely they could just buy an excess of standard, mass-marketed anesthesia drugs, and administer an overdose. The hardest part of an anesthesiologist's job is making sure that you don't just suddenly die unexpectedly even while attached to a shitload of monitors and with a large medical team working intently on keeping you alive. I suspect that if anesthesia overdose took so long to kill people then anesthesia would be a much easier job.

Again, I don't want them to kill these guys, but it's pretty pathetic that they can't even figure out how to administer a drug overdose that kills quickly. If they can't even figure out how to kill a man with anesthesia drugs, maybe they aren't competent to sort out who deserves to live and who deserves to die, you know?
It is not even a matter of figuring it out. There are plenty of opiods that will do the job quickly. I suppose, however, those in favor of killing do not want to make the dying easy.
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Number 6
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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The anesthesia part is just to keep the patient unconscious and quiet. It's a potassium overdose that does the killing by stopping the heart. Unless, that is, Arkansas is doing something different. It's also the case that most drug makers refuse to sell for the purposes of execution, which leaves the states jumping through all sorts of hoops in order to secure the medications for murder. Midazolam isn't hard to get for legitimate medical providers. I get the impression that there is more in our ambulances than the prison has.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Eric the .5b »

nicole wrote:CW: extreme nutpunch
Extreme, repeated nut punches.

Not a lot surprising, there, but I am deeply impressed by Dina Windle.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Shem »

Aresen wrote:
thoreau wrote:I don't want the state to kill them, but it's pretty pathetic that this is working out to be so difficult. Surely they could just buy an excess of standard, mass-marketed anesthesia drugs, and administer an overdose. The hardest part of an anesthesiologist's job is making sure that you don't just suddenly die unexpectedly even while attached to a shitload of monitors and with a large medical team working intently on keeping you alive. I suspect that if anesthesia overdose took so long to kill people then anesthesia would be a much easier job.

Again, I don't want them to kill these guys, but it's pretty pathetic that they can't even figure out how to administer a drug overdose that kills quickly. If they can't even figure out how to kill a man with anesthesia drugs, maybe they aren't competent to sort out who deserves to live and who deserves to die, you know?
It is not even a matter of figuring it out. There are plenty of opiods that will do the job quickly. I suppose, however, those in favor of killing do not want to make the dying easy.
Opiods have a habit of causing foaming at the mouth and convulsions, which are unpleasant for the people watching and damaging to the idea that the state killing a guy provides valuable catharsis.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Warren »

Yeah. Deep deep inside the brain, below the reptilian core even, is a tiny neuron that fires when death is imminent and absolutely demands of all other parts of the brain that they do whatever they are capable of to NOT DIE. The whole body responds to the Not Die command. The contents of the stomach and bowels are evacuated, sweating, rapid heart rate, pretty much anything that's a fluid gets moving. And the muscles will flex in an extreme and unnatural fashion. It's always ugly. Getting the right meds, in the right dosages, at the right times, to prevent the horror from being visibly obvious to any observer is a highly specialized skill.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
That, and doctors won't help them. First, do no harm, and all that.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Mo »

Number 6 wrote:
Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
That, and doctors won't help them. First, do no harm, and all that.
I don't think they're having trouble finding sufficiently shady doctors. Even the CIA was able to find psychologists to help them with the torture program.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Kolohe »

Why can't they then eminent domain the right drugs? Or have the state manufacturer them directly, i.e. this model https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radford ... tion_Plant
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by fyodor »

Warren wrote:Yeah. Deep deep inside the brain, below the reptilian core even, is a tiny neuron that fires when death is imminent and absolutely demands of all other parts of the brain that they do whatever they are capable of to NOT DIE. The whole body responds to the Not Die command. The contents of the stomach and bowels are evacuated, sweating, rapid heart rate, pretty much anything that's a fluid gets moving. And the muscles will flex in an extreme and unnatural fashion. It's always ugly. Getting the right meds, in the right dosages, at the right times, to prevent the horror from being visibly obvious to any observer is a highly specialized skill.
The vet gave my kitty cat a very peaceful looking death. I'd think she'd have had as much of a reptilian brain as we do.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Warren wrote:Yeah. Deep deep inside the brain, below the reptilian core even, is a tiny neuron that fires when death is imminent and absolutely demands of all other parts of the brain that they do whatever they are capable of to NOT DIE. The whole body responds to the Not Die command. The contents of the stomach and bowels are evacuated, sweating, rapid heart rate, pretty much anything that's a fluid gets moving. And the muscles will flex in an extreme and unnatural fashion. It's always ugly. Getting the right meds, in the right dosages, at the right times, to prevent the horror from being visibly obvious to any observer is a highly specialized skill.

No offense, Warren, but this seems counter to many, many examples of more peaceful deaths.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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fyodor wrote:
Warren wrote:Yeah. Deep deep inside the brain, below the reptilian core even, is a tiny neuron that fires when death is imminent and absolutely demands of all other parts of the brain that they do whatever they are capable of to NOT DIE. The whole body responds to the Not Die command. The contents of the stomach and bowels are evacuated, sweating, rapid heart rate, pretty much anything that's a fluid gets moving. And the muscles will flex in an extreme and unnatural fashion. It's always ugly. Getting the right meds, in the right dosages, at the right times, to prevent the horror from being visibly obvious to any observer is a highly specialized skill.
The vet gave my kitty cat a very peaceful looking death. I'd think she'd have had as much of a reptilian brain as we do.
My dad was a vet. I held many a suffering cat and dog while he administered a lethal dose. No struggle, just relaxing and the breathing stopped, then the heart. The drug (and I am not sure if this was a trade name) was called something like barbeuthol.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by thoreau »

Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
Surely the state can contract with a freelance synthetic chemist. The product might not have the necessary QC to be assured that it would be safe for medical use, but safety isn't really the concern here.

Honestly, though, the states should go to firing squad. Bullet manufacturers have no problem selling to the state, and if the public can't stomach the idea that killing people involved blood and physical trauma then maybe there is a lesson in that....

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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Painboy »

thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
Surely the state can contract with a freelance synthetic chemist. The product might not have the necessary QC to be assured that it would be safe for medical use, but safety isn't really the concern here.

Honestly, though, the states should go to firing squad. Bullet manufacturers have no problem selling to the state, and if the public can't stomach the idea that killing people involved blood and physical trauma then maybe there is a lesson in that....

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
From what I have read on it, getting killed by a firing squad was often seen as too honorable a death for a criminal, strange as that may sound to modern ears. There is also the psychological concern of the executioners being made to shoot someone in cold blood. It's quite different than simply flipping a switch.

Of course not having executions would solve both problems.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by thoreau »

Painboy wrote:From what I have read on it, getting killed by a firing squad was often seen as too honorable a death for a criminal, strange as that may sound to modern ears. There is also the psychological concern of the executioners being made to shoot someone in cold blood. It's quite different than simply flipping a switch.

Of course not having executions would solve both problems.
If it's hard to get people to agree to do it, and hard to find a method that satisfies everyone's moral sensibilities, maybe that's telling us something....

Everyone seems to want an execution method whereby an executioner makes the most minimal of motions and then the condemned man's eyes promptly shut as his body goes completely limp and the heart monitor flatlines. If that is the only way that people will accept killing other people, well, that actually speaks well of us in a way. And if it's impossible to do that, maybe that's telling us something.
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Mo
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Mo »

Painboy wrote:
thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
Surely the state can contract with a freelance synthetic chemist. The product might not have the necessary QC to be assured that it would be safe for medical use, but safety isn't really the concern here.

Honestly, though, the states should go to firing squad. Bullet manufacturers have no problem selling to the state, and if the public can't stomach the idea that killing people involved blood and physical trauma then maybe there is a lesson in that....

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
From what I have read on it, getting killed by a firing squad was often seen as too honorable a death for a criminal, strange as that may sound to modern ears. There is also the psychological concern of the executioners being made to shoot someone in cold blood. It's quite different than simply flipping a switch.

Of course not having executions would solve both problems.
It's like how Joseph-Ignace Guillotin suggested that a simple, mechanical beheading would be more humane than hangings or the breaking wheel, but ended up being horrified at the guillotine being named after him.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex
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Shem
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Shem »

Painboy wrote:
thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
Kolohe wrote:I've said this plenty of times before, but I don't understand how we can have legal physician assisted suicide but are unable to get death row biochemistry that passes legal muster.

(& ftr my opposition to the death penalty is almost solely because the state may get it wrong; I'm not really concerned about the other aspects)
The issue is the manufacturers won't sell to them. Medical suppliers, particularly European ones, are way more likely to sell when the patient chooses than when the state chooses.
Surely the state can contract with a freelance synthetic chemist. The product might not have the necessary QC to be assured that it would be safe for medical use, but safety isn't really the concern here.

Honestly, though, the states should go to firing squad. Bullet manufacturers have no problem selling to the state, and if the public can't stomach the idea that killing people involved blood and physical trauma then maybe there is a lesson in that....

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
From what I have read on it, getting killed by a firing squad was often seen as too honorable a death for a criminal, strange as that may sound to modern ears. There is also the psychological concern of the executioners being made to shoot someone in cold blood. It's quite different than simply flipping a switch.
Göring was refused a firing squad a Nuremburg for exactly that reason. It's probably why he used the cyanide capsule.

Traditionally, firing squads got around the moral issues by having 6 riflemen carry out the execution, one of whom had a blank. Each man could tell himself he was the blank, if he were so inclined. No reason you couldn't update that with an electronically controlled turret with six switches, only one of which was connected.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by thoreau »

Another issue is that if you really want this to be quick and painless then you probably want to destroy the condemned man's brain in a fraction of a second, e.g. aim a few large-caliber guns at the head and pull the trigger. But now it's messy to watch and messy to clean up. And that's traumatic for the witnesses and prison staff.

So they want a method of killing that spills as little blood as possible, and causes as little visible damage to the body as possible. A fast overdose with no convulsions or foaming or anything would satisfy that requirement, but the drugs don't always work that way.

So they have this dilemma, where they want to kill without any participants having to deal with anything unpleasant (except, you know, the whole "marching a man to the execution chamber and putting him into whatever device they ultimately come up with" part) and with some plausible denial about pain and suffering during the actual execution (besides, you know, the whole "waiting to be marched to the execution chamber and knowing that the end will come any second" part).

Maybe they could just not kill people.
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