Orange is the new President

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Kolohe
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Mo wrote: 17 Dec 2020, 11:23 The problem is that he’s such a juicy target that his usual strategy of wearing opponents down with lawyers may flip. Pretty sure anyone that Sue’s him will get plenty of donations. And Palm Beach is really Blue, so there’s no benefit to backing him up.
Palm Beach county is pretty blue. I'm not sure the town of Palm Beach, with its median age of 70 and median household income of 130K is. (the election website doesn't break results down by town, just precincts, so I could be wrong)
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Trump announces wave of pardons
President Donald Trump on Tuesday announced a wave of lame duck pardons, including two for men who pleaded guilty in Robert Mueller's investigation, as well as ones for Republican allies who once served in Congress and military contractors involved in a deadly shooting of Iraqi civilians.

The pardons of former campaign aide George Papadopoulos, former US congressmen Duncan Hunter and Chris Collins, and the four Blackwater guards involved in the Iraq massacre kick off what is expected to be a flurry of pardons and commutations in the coming weeks as Trump concludes his term.

Also included in the batch announced on Tuesday are Alex van der Zwaan, the Dutch lawyer who was sentenced to 30 days in jail after pleading guilty to lying to Mueller investigators; two Border Patrol agents convicted in 2006 of shooting and wounding an unarmed undocumented immigrant and then covering it up; and several people convicted of non-violent drug crimes serving lengthy sentences.

The pardons came at the recommendation of Trump allies in Congress and, in some cases, the conservative media. Many of the non-violent drug offenders were recommended for clemency by Alice Johnson, the former federal inmate whose sentence Trump commuted at the urging of Kim Kardashian West.
The political pardons are normal corruption. The ones I've underlined make me nauseous.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Well, at least he pardoned a few likely-decent people, alongside the literal murderers and war criminals.
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dead_elvis
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Orange is the new President

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dead_elvis wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 10:56 Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
Set aside the fact that the people in a position to write such restraints have no means of enforcing them and may themselves be in need of an executive pardon one day. Is there any way to write such constraints that wouldn't have unintended consequences for people actually deserving of clemency?
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Hugh Akston wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 11:56
dead_elvis wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 10:56 Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
Set aside the fact that the people in a position to write such restraints have no means of enforcing them and may themselves be in need of an executive pardon one day. Is there any way to write such constraints that wouldn't have unintended consequences for people actually deserving of clemency?
I think the only workable restriction would be to say the POTUS could not pardon himself or his family, any member of his cabinet or any person directly appointed by him, reserving the power to pardon such people to Congress. It wouldn't stop cosy deals or the Blackwater pardons, but it would have prevented the Flynn pardon.
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dead_elvis
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Hugh Akston wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 11:56
dead_elvis wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 10:56 Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
Set aside the fact that the people in a position to write such restraints have no means of enforcing them and may themselves be in need of an executive pardon one day. Is there any way to write such constraints that wouldn't have unintended consequences for people actually deserving of clemency?
Oh it's certainly a difficult question. A constitutional amendment would be required. I don't have any hard ideas about specifics, other than some sort of check that can only override his/her decision with a supermajority or near unanimous decision. Or a prohibition along the lines of Aresen's only including agents of the gov't or those hired by the gov't to do their work, as that creates clear conflict of interest. I dunno but this guy is out of control pardoning people who certainly don't deserve it, and it's a power that gets used so infrequently anyway compared to people who do deserve it.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Anything that could restrict pardons like the ones for the Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves this week) thugs would be used to fuck over deserving people.

Meanwhile, neither of the Teams are going to do anything about restricting pardons of officials or cronies.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Eric the .5b wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 18:22 Anything that could restrict pardons like the ones for the Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves this week) thugs would be used to fuck over deserving people.
Very definitely this, though Trump has been stingy with the pardon power.
Meanwhile, neither of the Teams are going to do anything about restricting pardons of officials or cronies.
Yeah, 'You pardon corrupt thieves, but the people we will pardon will be truly deserving, so we'll leave it as is for our turn.'
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Orange is the new President

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As with so many things Trump, I'm not sure we need a permanent solution to a temporary problem. You can argue the power has been abused by being used too little or too much or for the wrong people, but on average this seems to me to be way down the list of problems.

That said, were I to propose amendment language to check presidential pardon power it would probably be by a three justice panel: the Chief Justice and, for the sake of Court comity, one from each side of the political spectrum maybe rotating every year, and their job would be to approve or veto proposed pardons. Neither the currently serving associate justices nor the particular vote on any proposed pardon would be disclosed; all such decisions would be per curiam without comment.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex
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Rachel
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I would not want any type of restraint put one Presidential pardon power, because it would fuck over the people who actually deserve to be pardoned even more.

I wish there could be a blanket pardon for anyone imprisoned for a non-violent federal drug crime, but that will never happen.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Rachel wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 23:56 I would not want any type of restraint put one Presidential pardon power, because it would fuck over the people who actually deserve to be pardoned even more.

I wish there could be a blanket pardon for anyone imprisoned for a non-violent federal drug crime, but that will never happen.
Amen, Rachel. Certainly not expecting President Biden or President Harris to do it.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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How long before he pardons Ghislaine Maxwell and everyone accused of partaking of Epstein's sex slaves?
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 24 Dec 2020, 00:13 How long before he pardons Ghislaine Maxwell and everyone accused of partaking of Epstein's sex slaves?
< 27 days
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Aresen wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 23:58
Rachel wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 23:56 I would not want any type of restraint put one Presidential pardon power, because it would fuck over the people who actually deserve to be pardoned even more.

I wish there could be a blanket pardon for anyone imprisoned for a non-violent federal drug crime, but that will never happen.
Amen, Rachel. Certainly not expecting President Biden or President Harris to do it.
If they did, who would pick the cotton fight wildfires?
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JD
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Re: Orange is the new President

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In theory, I like the idea of another branch having to approve Presidential pardons, or at least having to not explicitly disapprove them. In practice, I can only see that turning into a further political shit-flinging fight.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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JD wrote: 24 Dec 2020, 11:54 In theory, I like the idea of another branch having to approve Presidential pardons, or at least having to not explicitly disapprove them. In practice, I can only see that turning into a further political shit-flinging fight.
Which is why I'd put that control in the Supreme Court. No one other than the likes of Trump would make a big deal out of a Supreme Court veto, nor is there any viable political revenge for the president to aim at the Court. And the factors it would consider in agreeing with a presidential pardon; disinterestedness, a viable equitable case for clemency, etc. would reinforce the president's decision.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Hugh Akston wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 11:56
dead_elvis wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 10:56 Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
Set aside the fact that the people in a position to write such restraints have no means of enforcing them and may themselves be in need of an executive pardon one day. Is there any way to write such constraints that wouldn't have unintended consequences for people actually deserving of clemency?
Yeah, this is one where I think, barring real corrupt intent, we just suck it up that there will be some marginal cases and say that the good outweighs the bad. I mean fuck it's not a finding of innocence and doesn't expunge the conviction as near as I can tell.

The war criminals though really do disgust me.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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lunchstealer wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 15:27
Hugh Akston wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 11:56
dead_elvis wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 10:56 Disgusting. Seriously, there needs to be some actual constraints put into place to prevent this kind of abuse of the privilege.
Set aside the fact that the people in a position to write such restraints have no means of enforcing them and may themselves be in need of an executive pardon one day. Is there any way to write such constraints that wouldn't have unintended consequences for people actually deserving of clemency?
Yeah, this is one where I think, barring real corrupt intent, we just suck it up that there will be some marginal cases and say that the good outweighs the bad. I mean fuck it's not a finding of innocence and doesn't expunge the conviction as near as I can tell.

The war criminals though really do disgust me.
I'm on this boat. It is really disgusting how self-serving and/or outright galling a lot of Trump's pardons are, but the only thing that I would want to stop is if something like that purported (for like a day) cash-for-pardons thing happened. And that would not be a system-wide thing, just investigations and possible prosecutions of anyone taking bribes for pardons.

Other than that, it's just stuff to remember when you're thinking of a particular president.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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lunchstealer wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 15:27 The war criminals though really do disgust me.
Well he's done that before.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Aresen wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 15:42
lunchstealer wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 15:27 The war criminals though really do disgust me.
Well he's done that before.
Yup, all of it. And he turned Gallagher into a fucking MAGA celeb who makes fucking money off his murder, the piece of shit.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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A US pardon doesn't mean an Iraqi Wiesenthal can't hunt war criminals and drag them to Iraq for trial
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 18:29 A US pardon doesn't mean an Iraqi Wiesenthal can't hunt war criminals and drag them to Iraq for trial
Yeah, but the MAGA types would find new levels of lose-their-shittedness if that happens. 'Murican Exceptionalism50.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Aresen wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 19:25
thoreau wrote: 25 Dec 2020, 18:29 A US pardon doesn't mean an Iraqi Wiesenthal can't hunt war criminals and drag them to Iraq for trial
Yeah, but the MAGA types would find new levels of lose-their-shittedness if that happens. 'Murican Exceptionalism50.
Yeah, but I'm sure there's also a downside.
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