Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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I'd like to think the rest of the craven GOP will engage in some good hard introspection about the role their behavior has played in leading to this, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Jennifer wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:51 I'd like to think the rest of the craven GOP will engage in some good hard introspection about the role their behavior has played in leading to this, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Hugh Akston wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:57
Jennifer wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:51 I'd like to think the rest of the craven GOP will engage in some good hard introspection about the role their behavior has played in leading to this, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:45 I'm completely on board with the people saying that Trump needs to be impeached for inciting this, immediately. Out of office now.
The only question should be whether the 25th Amendment plays out first.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I might be missing something, but how is what exactly part of a coup? Asking the National Guard to step in? The DOD refusing to do so? I don't see either one as necessarily so; the Capitol and DC police have clearly lost the ability to control the situation, and major urban disorder is a fairly reasonable reason to call in the NG, but at the same time I can see why the DOD would really not want to get involved with that tar baby.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I have a hard time faulting DoD for wanting to stay out of the settlement of a domestic political and partisan dispute. It's not like civilian law enforcement has a shortage of heavy-duty SWAT gear and other means to aggression these days.

(The best reason to send in the National Guard would be that they sometimes show more discipline and restraint than the cops, but I also can't blame the military for staying the fuck out of this.)
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I THINK that this decision has been reversed now.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Jennifer wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:59
Hugh Akston wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:57
Jennifer wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:51 I'd like to think the rest of the craven GOP will engage in some good hard introspection about the role their behavior has played in leading to this, but I'm not holding my breath.
Look, Cruz et al may have spent the past four years repeating Trump's lies and echoing his violent rhetoric and supporting his divisive destructive garbage presidency, but the important thing is that now that the inevitable violence has begun they have come out against violence.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Ivanka Trump tweeted that the rioters are "American Patriots," though she has since deleted it.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:08
Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I have a hard time faulting DoD for wanting to stay out of the settlement of a domestic political and partisan dispute. It's not like civilian law enforcement has a shortage of heavy-duty SWAT gear and other means to aggression these days.

(The best reason to send in the National Guard would be that they sometimes show more discipline and restraint than the cops, but I also can't blame the military for staying the fuck out of this.)
This is an armed attack on Congress to prevent them from carrying out the results of the election and keep their guy in power. This isn't a riot. This isn't some black bloc dipshits smashing windows at a federal building in the middle of the night. It's armed insurrection.

This is exactly the time for the DoD to get involved.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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lunchstealer wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:12
thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:08
Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I have a hard time faulting DoD for wanting to stay out of the settlement of a domestic political and partisan dispute. It's not like civilian law enforcement has a shortage of heavy-duty SWAT gear and other means to aggression these days.

(The best reason to send in the National Guard would be that they sometimes show more discipline and restraint than the cops, but I also can't blame the military for staying the fuck out of this.)
This is an armed attack on Congress to prevent them from carrying out the results of the election and keep their guy in power. This isn't a riot. This isn't some black bloc dipshits smashing windows at a federal building in the middle of the night. It's armed insurrection.

This is exactly the time for the DoD to get involved.
If the alphabet soup of nominally civilian federal law enforcement agencies work together they can probably do this without DoD help.

The only thing worse than soldiers not getting involved is soldiers getting involved. It may be necessary, but I can't fault them for telling the civilians that they'd really prefer not to get involved.

That said, if they do get involved, I hope they wear Union Blue and fix bayonets.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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JD wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:06
Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I might be missing something, but how is what exactly part of a coup? Asking the National Guard to step in? The DOD refusing to do so? I don't see either one as necessarily so; the Capitol and DC police have clearly lost the ability to control the situation, and major urban disorder is a fairly reasonable reason to call in the NG, but at the same time I can see why the DOD would really not want to get involved with that tar baby.
If the Commander in Chief is telling the military to stand down while his people interfere with the working of the legislature, then yeah, it sure looks like an attempted coup.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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JD wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:06
Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I might be missing something, but how is what exactly part of a coup? Asking the National Guard to step in? The DOD refusing to do so? I don't see either one as necessarily so; the Capitol and DC police have clearly lost the ability to control the situation, and major urban disorder is a fairly reasonable reason to call in the NG, but at the same time I can see why the DOD would really not want to get involved with that tar baby.
They went to the Capitol because Trump told them to do it in his speech to them. His DoD then slow-walked responding to it. This is what he wanted.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Number 6 wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:17 If the Commander in Chief is telling the military to stand down while his people interfere with the working of the legislature, then yeah, it sure looks like an attempted coup.
Is the CinC telling them that? I haven't seen that claim anywhere, so far all we've got is a whole lot of "a source says".

Looking at the videos of the Capitol, one thing that strikes me is how incredibly poorly prepared and organized the defenders seem to be. Examples below; the police are milling around in almost as bad a fashion as the attackers, and their defense appears to be one line of light barricades which isn't even linked in any way.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Number 6 wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:17
JD wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:06
Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 15:49 Plus, apparently the DOD said "nah, we don't think so." to both the Capitol and DC asking for the National Guard to be deployed. How is that not part of a coup? (TV is the source of the Capitol information)

I might be missing something, but how is what exactly part of a coup? Asking the National Guard to step in? The DOD refusing to do so? I don't see either one as necessarily so; the Capitol and DC police have clearly lost the ability to control the situation, and major urban disorder is a fairly reasonable reason to call in the NG, but at the same time I can see why the DOD would really not want to get involved with that tar baby.
If the Commander in Chief is telling the military to stand down while his people interfere with the working of the legislature, then yeah, it sure looks like an attempted coup.
Yeah. What 6 and Shem and lunchstealer said. If this were a state, the governor would have had the authority to mobilize the NG and react to this. Because it's in DC, they have to ask the DoD, and the DoD said "yeah, we don't think we want to." Whether that came from Trump, a Trump lackey, or someone who just thought it would be not their place, or the Guard was unwarranted, it's still a bad look, especially when the VA Governor says "ok, we'll send OUR National Guard." I don't know if the DoD has changed their mind since, but it wasn't until after others responded. And especially bad when they had rolled out so many cops over the summer when it was 'the other side'.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:36 What 6 and Shem and lunchstealer said. If this were a state, the governor would have had the authority to mobilize the NG and react to this. Because it's in DC, they have to ask the DoD, and the DoD said "yeah, we don't think we want to." Whether that came from Trump, a Trump lackey, or someone who just thought it would be not their place, or the Guard was unwarranted, it's still a bad look, especially when the VA Governor says "ok, we'll send OUR National Guard." I don't know if the DoD has changed their mind since, but it wasn't until after others responded. And especially bad when they had rolled out so many cops over the summer when it was 'the other side'.
I don't think armed troops from Virginia entering the US Capitol would look much better than what's happening now. I mean, the last time they seriously tried was July 4, 1863.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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When even groups like the National Association of Manufacturers are publicly calling for the 25th amendment:

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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On one level you guys are of course right. On another level, we're talking about something that will go down in history books, and I can't fault someone in the military for hesitating before committing troops.

In the end, they did agree to send troops (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/p ... -army.html), but I can't fault them for hesitating. There are very few things that militaries should rush into, and domestic political unrest with a partisan angle must top the list. I think it's OK that they ultimately agreed to go, but it's reassuring that they hesitated.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:47 On one level you guys are of course right. On another level, we're talking about something that will go down in history books, and I can't fault someone in the military for hesitating before committing troops.

In the end, they did agree to send troops (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/p ... -army.html), but I can't fault them for hesitating. There are very few things that militaries should rush into, and domestic political unrest with a partisan angle must top the list. I think it's OK that they ultimately agreed to go, but it's reassuring that they hesitated.
I think that depends on if they hesitated, or were told to hesitate.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Number 6 wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:55
thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:47 On one level you guys are of course right. On another level, we're talking about something that will go down in history books, and I can't fault someone in the military for hesitating before committing troops.

In the end, they did agree to send troops (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/p ... -army.html), but I can't fault them for hesitating. There are very few things that militaries should rush into, and domestic political unrest with a partisan angle must top the list. I think it's OK that they ultimately agreed to go, but it's reassuring that they hesitated.
I think that depends on if they hesitated, or were told to hesitate.
That's fair. There are good and bad reasons to hesitate here, and maybe I shouldn't presume good reasons.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 17:06
Number 6 wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:55
thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:47 On one level you guys are of course right. On another level, we're talking about something that will go down in history books, and I can't fault someone in the military for hesitating before committing troops.

In the end, they did agree to send troops (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/p ... -army.html), but I can't fault them for hesitating. There are very few things that militaries should rush into, and domestic political unrest with a partisan angle must top the list. I think it's OK that they ultimately agreed to go, but it's reassuring that they hesitated.
I think that depends on if they hesitated, or were told to hesitate.
That's fair. There are good and bad reasons to hesitate here, and maybe I shouldn't presume good reasons.
IF they were told to hesitate, I hope somebody has preserved a record of the order. (This might explain Trump implanting his cronies in the top Pentagon jobs last month.)
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 17:06
Number 6 wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:55
thoreau wrote: 06 Jan 2021, 16:47 On one level you guys are of course right. On another level, we're talking about something that will go down in history books, and I can't fault someone in the military for hesitating before committing troops.

In the end, they did agree to send troops (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/p ... -army.html), but I can't fault them for hesitating. There are very few things that militaries should rush into, and domestic political unrest with a partisan angle must top the list. I think it's OK that they ultimately agreed to go, but it's reassuring that they hesitated.
I think that depends on if they hesitated, or were told to hesitate.
That's fair. There are good and bad reasons to hesitate here, and maybe I shouldn't presume good reasons.
Possibly a point in the DoD's favor: To point out something that was said on TV (MSNBC) this afternoon, apparently there was some discussion either prior to today, or earlier today, that there was concern within the DoD and other observers that Trump could use some potential unrest to deploy troops to the Capitol or in some other way that would be viewed as the military attempting to interfere on behalf of Trump. So that may be why DoD was hesitant to commit to some action.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Trump released a Twitter video, still saying the election was stolen from him, but telling people to go home anyway. FFS.
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