Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Jasper
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jasper »

I think Ivanka could continue the cult of personality if she wanted to, and keep Trumpism as a main lynch(ing) pin of republican politics for quite a while even if she and her meathead brothers never run for a government office.
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Aresen
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Aresen »

Shem wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 00:19 Gonna be hard for the Trump kids to run for anything after their dad sets them up to take the fall for all the shady shit he's been doing since...well, "always." There's a half dozen jurisdictions full of prosecutors who want to build a career on being The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Trump's going to sell the German techno band he calls his offspring on taking the fall with promises of pardons that'll never actually materialize.
Do you think the younger Trumps are dumb enough to do that? After all, they've been close enough to the action to see The Don do it to many others. They have to know he gives zero fucks about anyone but himself. Why would they be naive enough to think he would bail them out?
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

Aresen wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 11:59
Shem wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 00:19 Gonna be hard for the Trump kids to run for anything after their dad sets them up to take the fall for all the shady shit he's been doing since...well, "always." There's a half dozen jurisdictions full of prosecutors who want to build a career on being The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Trump's going to sell the German techno band he calls his offspring on taking the fall with promises of pardons that'll never actually materialize.
Do you think the younger Trumps are dumb enough to do that? After all, they've been close enough to the action to see The Don do it to many others. They have to know he gives zero fucks about anyone but himself. Why would they be naive enough to think he would bail them out?
For the same reason that anyone continued to work/vote/riot for Trump despite his well-established record of burning people who were no longer useful to him.
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Shem
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Shem »

Aresen wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 11:59
Shem wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 00:19 Gonna be hard for the Trump kids to run for anything after their dad sets them up to take the fall for all the shady shit he's been doing since...well, "always." There's a half dozen jurisdictions full of prosecutors who want to build a career on being The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Trump's going to sell the German techno band he calls his offspring on taking the fall with promises of pardons that'll never actually materialize.
Do you think the younger Trumps are dumb enough to do that? After all, they've been close enough to the action to see The Don do it to many others. They have to know he gives zero fucks about anyone but himself. Why would they be naive enough to think he would bail them out?
What is, "decades of psychological conditioning," Alex?
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Number 6
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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It's like no one listens to Living Colour anymore.
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thoreau
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by thoreau »

Aresen wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 11:59
Shem wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 00:19 Gonna be hard for the Trump kids to run for anything after their dad sets them up to take the fall for all the shady shit he's been doing since...well, "always." There's a half dozen jurisdictions full of prosecutors who want to build a career on being The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Trump's going to sell the German techno band he calls his offspring on taking the fall with promises of pardons that'll never actually materialize.
Do you think the younger Trumps are dumb enough to do that? After all, they've been close enough to the action to see The Don do it to many others. They have to know he gives zero fucks about anyone but himself. Why would they be naive enough to think he would bail them out?
1) Of course they're that dumb. They're Trump kids.

2) Most people spend their entire lives in denial about Mom and Dad

3) "OK, he might do that to Eric, but I'm Daddy's favorite!"
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Jasper
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jasper »

Number 6 wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 12:36 It's like no one listens to Living Colour anymore.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

Jasper wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 14:33
Number 6 wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 12:36 It's like no one listens to Living Colour anymore.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Cult of Personality (which also inspired one of my better mondegreens: the very first time I ever heard that song, on the radio, I was caught by the guitar riff ... and genuinely shocked when the guy apparently started singing "I'm a fucked-up personality, a fucked up personality," because so far as I knew, you're not allowed to say THAT word on the radio.)
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by lunchstealer »

They're not ready to jump in after their dad and by the time they are there'll have been some other awful cryptoracist demagogues that have filled the void Hawley-style. I doubt they'd be front runners but a Dubya style squeaker isn't implausible. Not least because the primary system is broken.
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Jennifer
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

A GOP lawyer openly admits before the SCOTUS that the purpose of the various voting-restriction laws is to help Republicans, because they can't beat Democrats in a fair election:
Asked what the Republican Party's investment in the case, GOP lawyer Michael Carvin suggested that a change in the status quo might hamper Republicans' chances of winning future elections. Lifting the restrictions, Carvin said, would put Republicans "at a competitive disadvantage relative to Democrats, Politics is a zero sum game. And every extra vote they get through unlawful interpretations of Section 2 hurts us. It's the difference between winning an election 50-49 and losing an election."
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Number 6
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Number 6 »

Jennifer wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 18:47
Jasper wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 14:33
Number 6 wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 12:36 It's like no one listens to Living Colour anymore.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Cult of Personality (which also inspired one of my better mondegreens: the very first time I ever heard that song, on the radio, I was caught by the guitar riff ... and genuinely shocked when the guy apparently started singing "I'm a fucked-up personality, a fucked up personality," because so far as I knew, you're not allowed to say THAT word on the radio.)
Yes, this. FWIW, I heard it as “Cultured Personality.”
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Jennifer wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 18:58 A GOP lawyer openly admits before the SCOTUS that the purpose of the various voting-restriction laws is to help Republicans, because they can't beat Democrats in a fair election:
Asked what the Republican Party's investment in the case, GOP lawyer Michael Carvin suggested that a change in the status quo might hamper Republicans' chances of winning future elections. Lifting the restrictions, Carvin said, would put Republicans "at a competitive disadvantage relative to Democrats, Politics is a zero sum game. And every extra vote they get through unlawful interpretations of Section 2 hurts us. It's the difference between winning an election 50-49 and losing an election."
True, but the crux of the argument is that it's unlawful. I'm not suggesting Republicans are interested in the law, per se, but they're as entitled to make a case that X is the law and the opposition did not follow X as the Dems are. And for purposes of standing, the Rep. Party has to demonstrate it has real skin in the game. *shrug*
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Sidney Powell argues in new court filing that no reasonable people would believe her election fraud claims

The most interesting thing about this defense is what it says about the majority of the GOP.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by JD »

Newsweek's article on it was pretty amusing: https://www.newsweek.com/sidney-powell- ... rs-1578052

Apparently the Qanon believers were really taken by surprise by her defense amounting to "any reasonable person would know this is just hyperbole".

"...but...but...but...is she saying it's not true? Because we all know they stole the election, so..."
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by lshap »

Aresen wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 15:57 Sidney Powell argues in new court filing that no reasonable people would believe her election fraud claims

The most interesting thing about this defense is what it says about the majority of the GOP.
Hahahahaha!
First, this is hilarious.
Second, doesn't this prove she was bringing unserious and frivolous cases before the court? Are they allowed to do that?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Aresen »

lshap wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 17:26
Aresen wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 15:57 Sidney Powell argues in new court filing that no reasonable people would believe her election fraud claims

The most interesting thing about this defense is what it says about the majority of the GOP.
Hahahahaha!
First, this is hilarious.
Second, doesn't this prove she was bringing unserious and frivolous cases before the court? Are they allowed to do that?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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JD wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 16:32 Newsweek's article on it was pretty amusing: https://www.newsweek.com/sidney-powell- ... rs-1578052

Apparently the Qanon believers were really taken by surprise by her defense amounting to "any reasonable person would know this is just hyperbole".

"...but...but...but...is she saying it's not true? Because we all know they stole the election, so..."
The story says that some of them are claiming that pressure from the 'Deep State' forced her to backpedal.

I guess a $1.3 billion lawsuit can be described as 'pressure.'
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

Is there a chance in hell of that defense even working to dismiss a slander or libel suit? I thought the hyperbole defense only applied to things like, if I tell everybody you're a "stupid motherfucker" you can't sue me for alleging that you've literally had sexual relations with your mom.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jadagul »

Jennifer wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 21:24 Is there a chance in hell of that defense even working to dismiss a slander or libel suit? I thought the hyperbole defense only applied to things like, if I tell everybody you're a "stupid motherfucker" you can't sue me for alleging that you've literally had sexual relations with your mom.
The standard is exactly what she articulates there: would a reasonable person take it to be a provable statement of fact.

Hyperbole isn't defamation, but neither is puffery, or trash-talking, or obvious boasting, or braggadocio.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Pham Nuwen »

She brought these arguments and statements into a court of law. I can't see how she survives that.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by thoreau »

So if I say that she is correct when I say that nobody should believe her, it seems like there's a paradox in play here.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Aresen »

Jadagul wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 22:52
Jennifer wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 21:24 Is there a chance in hell of that defense even working to dismiss a slander or libel suit? I thought the hyperbole defense only applied to things like, if I tell everybody you're a "stupid motherfucker" you can't sue me for alleging that you've literally had sexual relations with your mom.
The standard is exactly what she articulates there: would a reasonable person take it to be a provable statement of fact.

Hyperbole isn't defamation, but neither is puffery, or trash-talking, or obvious boasting, or braggadocio.
It seems to me that, as a lawyer apparently speaking in her professional capacity, she would be held to a higher standard than a member of the general public, a media commentator or even a regular politician. (This is my opinion - I know that case law may be different.)

Also, since she was apparently representing the POTUS*, her public representations are more likely to be accepted as fact by a 'reasonable person.'

As one pundit pointed out (and thoreau alludes to) she is implicitly admitting she knew her statements were false, which is one of the other tests for defamation.

*Trump threw her under the bus once, then brought her back. I assume he will throw her under the bus once more if she is 'inconvenient.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by thoreau »

Aresen wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 00:04 Also, since she was apparently representing the POTUS*, her public representations are more likely to be accepted as fact by a 'reasonable person.'
What reasonable person would believe anyone representing THAT president?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 00:30
Aresen wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 00:04 Also, since she was apparently representing the POTUS*, her public representations are more likely to be accepted as fact by a 'reasonable person.'
What reasonable person would believe anyone representing THAT president?
Well, 75 million people did. Whether they could be considered reasonable or not depends on where you sit in the sports bar.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 23:33 She brought these arguments and statements into a court of law. I can't see how she survives that.
Assertions made in judicial proceedings, even if knowingly false, usually fall under an absolute privilege rule protecting the defamer.

There are other sanctions courts can and will use for knowingly lying in court, and I think she's going to be nailed on that, but the defamation suit will pretty much have to rely on public statements made outside the court.
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