Brexit: what say ye?

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Hugh Akston »

Jasper wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 08:19 When I was in Rome several years ago, on a tour of the Forum, I picked up a fist-sized piece of marble off the ground and brought it home.

If Rome wants to protect their ancient architectural debris, they should post more guards.
This is basically this entire argument in a nutshell.
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nicole
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Warren wrote: 20 Feb 2020, 21:04
Painboy wrote: 20 Feb 2020, 17:22
Eric the .5b wrote: 20 Feb 2020, 17:13
Mo wrote: 20 Feb 2020, 16:52 If the people in Gibraltar wanted to be Spanish, it would be a bigger deal. Self determination and all that.
I'd tend to agree, but a lot of the world doesn't care what the residents of Gibraltar (or other places like the Falklands) want.

Ultimately, I just find the furor about the statues weird. At some point, it seems you have to say "OK, anything you grabbed before X year is yours." or you'll get lost in bottomless wrangling. I don't know what year that should be exactly, but I bet it's less than 200 years ago.
Agreed. Even better the two parties can accept that reality and get together and figure out a compromise or some other mutually beneficial arrangement instead of one side just demanding the other hand everything over because somebody's long dead ancestor may or may not have legitimately acquired it from someone else's long dead ancestor.
So like. Your world doesn't have a Middle East at all?
I thought the whole problem of the Middle East was people thinking what their ancestors were doing where gave them rights to something today.
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Warren
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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nicole wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 09:44 I thought the whole problem of the Middle East was people thinking what their ancestors were doing where gave them rights to something today.
This is what I'm saying. That's the problem and it can never change.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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When I was in Greece wandering around the Parthenon, there were indeed signs everywhere and police with semiautomatic weapons patrolling the area essentially saying your ass would be arrested if you so much as bent over and picked up a pebble.

It's a shame the U.S. didn't offer the Zionists their own semi-sovereign state here in the first place; just carve it out of the vast federal land holdings and be done with it. Yeah, I know, they wouldn't have accepted, but if they had it would have solved a lot of problems. People get irrationally attached to geography and whatever history happened there, they declare certain places per se "holy" and ground zero for that silliness is Jerusalem. Much as I loath the U.N., it would have made far more sense when we had the chance to make Jerusalem a separate protectorate open to everyone but owned by no one. We could have called it Jerusalem-Land and turned it into a theme park, charging Jews, Muslims and Christians modest admissions fees to visit their holy sites.

People are irrational. That's not going to change and, at bottom, it's the cause of most of humanity's problems.
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Warren
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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:o UGH!
You think bringing that insanity to our shores would solve problems? No thank you.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Warren wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:21 :o UGH!
You think bringing that insanity to our shores would solve problems? No thank you.
Given the choice between having the State of Israel in Alabama and the State of Alabama in Alabama, I know which way I'd vote.
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thoreau
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Warren wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 10:22
nicole wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 09:44 I thought the whole problem of the Middle East was people thinking what their ancestors were doing where gave them rights to something today.
This is what I'm saying. That's the problem and it can never change.
That issue is hardly unique to the Middle East. I think the bigger problem is that rather than fighting their way to new borders on their own after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, they got their borders imposed by outsiders. If left to their own devices, they probably would have carved out (with blood) some borders that would have looked not too different from the internal borders between administrative divisions of an empire that had lasted for centuries (and had been built out of another empire that lasted even longer).
D.A. Ridgely wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:25
Warren wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:21 :o UGH!
You think bringing that insanity to our shores would solve problems? No thank you.
Given the choice between having the State of Israel in Alabama and the State of Alabama in Alabama, I know which way I'd vote.
I would have given them Utah, so they could have a religiously significant desert. But I see your point.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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thoreau wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:36 I would have given them Utah, so they could have a religiously significant desert.
So they could be at war with the Mormons forever?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Warren wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:41
thoreau wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:36 I would have given them Utah, so they could have a religiously significant desert.
So they could be at war with the Mormons forever?
Fair point.

I'd give them the whitest parts of Alabama and Mississippi, and encourage them to ethnically cleanse the place.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:00 It's a shame the U.S. didn't offer the Zionists their own semi-sovereign state here in the first place; just carve it out of the vast federal land holdings and be done with it. Yeah, I know, they wouldn't have accepted, but if they had it would have solved a lot of problems.
There actually was a proposal to settle Jews in Alaska: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery_Report
It did not get very far for a bunch of reasons. The whole history of proposed Jewish states is pretty interesting and often darkly amusing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals ... wish_state
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Shem
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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JD wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:53 Maybe we should just depopulate East Prussia and put the Jews back there..."
In terms of reparations for the Holocaust, this probably would have been the most just option.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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JD wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:53 Maybe we should just depopulate East Prussia and put the Jews back there..."
If any group of people were to face collective punishment over the Holocaust, making the Germans give up their land for reparations would've been far more just than taking it out on the Palestinians.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Jennifer wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 15:00
JD wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:53 Maybe we should just depopulate East Prussia and put the Jews back there..."
If any group of people were to face collective punishment over the Holocaust, making the Germans give up their land for reparations would've been far more just than taking it out on the Palestinians.
Levels of anti-semitic graffiti in Europe would be unchanged from our timeline, to be sure.

I wonder about West or North Texas, myself. And what the smallest number of landowners you'd have to compensate would be..
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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JD wrote: 21 Feb 2020, 12:53Maybe we should just depopulate East Prussia and put the Jews back there..."
Of course, that would still leave them with Germans, Poles and Russians for neighbors...
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

I've been checking the news in the r/brexit subreddit -- holy crap, Britain is fucked. Though I do confess to some schadenfreude reading about various Britons who retired to Spain, voted for Brexit, and were then appalled to discover they can't live in Spain anymore. But I feel very sorry for the Britons who voted against this mess and are stuck living with it anyway.
https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit- ... son-2021-3
...According to the UK's Office for National Statistics, trade between the EU and the UK was hit hard in January, with exports down by 40.7% compared with December and imports from the EU down by 28% in the same period.

This is the biggest overall fall in exports since records began, yet the decline for some sectors has been even worse.

Analysis by the Food & Drink Federation published last week showed that exports in January dropped to £7 million — or about $9.6 million — from £45 million year-on-year, while whisky exports dropped to £40 million from £105 million.

This is a colossal decline. For some sectors, including parts of the UK's world-renowned shellfish fishing industry, the decline could be permanent because of the EU's effectively locking Britain out of its market altogether....
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Jennifer wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 06:18 I've been checking the news in the r/brexit subreddit -- holy crap, Britain is fucked. Though I do confess to some schadenfreude reading about various Britons who retired to Spain, voted for Brexit, and were then appalled to discover they can't live in Spain anymore. But I feel very sorry for the Britons who voted against this mess and are stuck living with it anyway.
https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit- ... son-2021-3
...According to the UK's Office for National Statistics, trade between the EU and the UK was hit hard in January, with exports down by 40.7% compared with December and imports from the EU down by 28% in the same period.

This is the biggest overall fall in exports since records began, yet the decline for some sectors has been even worse.

Analysis by the Food & Drink Federation published last week showed that exports in January dropped to £7 million — or about $9.6 million — from £45 million year-on-year, while whisky exports dropped to £40 million from £105 million.

This is a colossal decline. For some sectors, including parts of the UK's world-renowned shellfish fishing industry, the decline could be permanent because of the EU's effectively locking Britain out of its market altogether....
I often check the UK news feed, so I had been somewhat aware how Brexit was screwing up the UK economy. I also confess to a little bit of schadenfreude, but feel the same way for the 48% who opposed it.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Aresen wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 10:59
Jennifer wrote: 07 Apr 2021, 06:18 I've been checking the news in the r/brexit subreddit -- holy crap, Britain is fucked. Though I do confess to some schadenfreude reading about various Britons who retired to Spain, voted for Brexit, and were then appalled to discover they can't live in Spain anymore. But I feel very sorry for the Britons who voted against this mess and are stuck living with it anyway.
https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit- ... son-2021-3
...According to the UK's Office for National Statistics, trade between the EU and the UK was hit hard in January, with exports down by 40.7% compared with December and imports from the EU down by 28% in the same period.

This is the biggest overall fall in exports since records began, yet the decline for some sectors has been even worse.

Analysis by the Food & Drink Federation published last week showed that exports in January dropped to £7 million — or about $9.6 million — from £45 million year-on-year, while whisky exports dropped to £40 million from £105 million.

This is a colossal decline. For some sectors, including parts of the UK's world-renowned shellfish fishing industry, the decline could be permanent because of the EU's effectively locking Britain out of its market altogether....
I often check the UK news feed, so I had been somewhat aware how Brexit was screwing up the UK economy. I also confess to a little bit of schadenfreude, but feel the same way for the 48% who opposed it.
Once again, I feel like bare-majority plebiscites are for trivial shit. Anything important should take some kind of supermajority. At least a ten point spread, but 60/40 isn't a terrible idea. Otherwise let things go through the normal channels so pols have to take responsibility for it. 48% of a country shouldn't get screwed over on something this big. I can't say I blame a lot of Brexiteers who were getting pissed off at massive bureaucratic overreach from Brussels, but the consequences of something this huge are not easy to plot out. Something that gets a bare 4% margin should be for simple/trivial stuff. Hell, CO's then-groundbreaking MJ legalization was something that I wholeheartedly supported and I felt like prohibition was a massive civil rights imposition, but I feel like that 55/45% vote with an almost 11 point margin with the decimal points was important for making prohibitionists not be bitter about the result.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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lunchstealer wrote: 08 Apr 2021, 16:16 Hell, CO's then-groundbreaking MJ legalization was something that I wholeheartedly supported and I felt like prohibition was a massive civil rights imposition, but I feel like that 55/45% vote with an almost 11 point margin with the decimal points was important for making prohibitionists not be bitter about the result.
Even if they had been bitter, there was a very simple solution....
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Aresen wrote: 08 Apr 2021, 17:40
lunchstealer wrote: 08 Apr 2021, 16:16 Hell, CO's then-groundbreaking MJ legalization was something that I wholeheartedly supported and I felt like prohibition was a massive civil rights imposition, but I feel like that 55/45% vote with an almost 11 point margin with the decimal points was important for making prohibitionists not be bitter about the result.
Even if they had been bitter, there was a very simple solution....
Would you say ... it would be .... final?
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