Brexit: what say ye?

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Aresen
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

While the EU is a regulatory state, so is the UK to almost the same degree. In or out, the difference is negligible. But now, parties wishing to trade across the divide need to satisfy two regulatory bodies instead of one.

Whatever gains there might be from leaving the EU will be more than offset by the losses due to more restricted movement of people and investment.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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JasonL wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 11:49 I really don't understand the libartarianish people who feel like brexit = great liberty. I get straight nationalists but I don't get something something freedom.
Free(r) movement of capital, labor, goods, and people across national borders is not nothing.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

Hugh Akston wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 13:12
JasonL wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 11:49 I really don't understand the libartarianish people who feel like brexit = great liberty. I get straight nationalists but I don't get something something freedom.
Free(r) movement of capital, labor, goods, and people across national borders is not nothing.
Except that, from the perspective of a British citizen, isn't this likely to result in LESS free movement across borders? (Not right away -- I understand that as of right now, the everyday status quo for a Briton is no different than it was when that Briton also belonged to the EU -- but now everything is up for grabs.)
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Mo
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Jennifer wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:07
Hugh Akston wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 13:12
JasonL wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 11:49 I really don't understand the libartarianish people who feel like brexit = great liberty. I get straight nationalists but I don't get something something freedom.
Free(r) movement of capital, labor, goods, and people across national borders is not nothing.
Except that, from the perspective of a British citizen, isn't this likely to result in LESS free movement across borders? (Not right away -- I understand that as of right now, the everyday status quo for a Briton is no different than it was when that Briton also belonged to the EU -- but now everything is up for grabs.)
Oh yeah I misread the question. EU is definitely better for freedom, all things considered, if only because it reduces the likelihood of war with the other europs.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Among some of them -- though I don't know what percentage -- there's also something darker at play: the "Britain first"-types (white Britons only) who blame the EU's free-passage rules on Britain's being "overrun" by the "wrong kind of people" and other "scare quote" dogwhistles. Basically Britain's equivalent of America's "Build the wall / fuck off, we're full" Trumpers.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by nicole »

thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Some also think it’s generally better for freedom and representation to have a smaller polity.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Painboy »

nicole wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 06:50
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Some also think it’s generally better for freedom and representation to have a smaller polity.
This. For many the EU is just another layer of unaccountable bureaucracy.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Hugh Akston »

nicole wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 06:50
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Some also think it’s generally better for freedom and representation to have a smaller polity.
So which is the optimal size polity for freedom: Chicago aldermen or HOA?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

Hugh Akston wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 13:28
nicole wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 06:50
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Some also think it’s generally better for freedom and representation to have a smaller polity.
So which is the optimal size polity for freedom: Chicago aldermen or HOA?
Somewhere in between. Say a quarter to half a million. Iceland is in the butter zone.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by nicole »

Hugh Akston wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 13:28
nicole wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 06:50
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:58
Mo wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 14:31
thoreau wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 12:05 The EU is most definitely a regulatory state.
And so is the U.K.
No argument here. But the question was why some libertarians think Brexit is good, and for those whose central nervous systems are wired directly to jerking knees, all that matters is that the EU is indeed a regulatory state.
Some also think it’s generally better for freedom and representation to have a smaller polity.
So which is the optimal size polity for freedom: Chicago aldermen or HOA?
1, duh
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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What about seasteads? How many then on your glorious trash based island of liberty?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

So in addition to losing Scotland and Northern Ireland, the UK may have to give up the Elgin Marbles. I suspect they’ll be more upset about the latter than the former.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... es-brexit/
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Mo wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 19:21 So in addition to losing Scotland and Northern Ireland, the UK may have to give up the Elgin Marbles. I suspect they’ll be more upset about the latter than the former.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... es-brexit/
I think the Elgin Marbles should go back to Greece, even though I doubt the Greeks will be as careful custodians.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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"Britain is to close its borders to unskilled workers and those who can’t speak English as part of a fundamental overhaul of immigration laws that will end the era of cheap EU labour in factories, warehouses, hotels and restaurants."
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Jennifer wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 22:37Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
If by "stole" you mean "saved them for humanity from certain destruction", I don't think it's that ballsy.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Mo wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 19:21 So in addition to losing Scotland and Northern Ireland, the UK may have to give up the Elgin Marbles.
So they're going to...lose their marbles?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

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Solitudinarian wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:17
Jennifer wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 22:37Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
If by "stole" you mean "saved them for humanity from certain destruction", I don't think it's that ballsy.
Both are likely true. Last time I was in Greece, which was in the mid 80s, I can't say I was overly impressed with its museums and people were still left sufficiently unguarded at the Parthenon that some would try to chip out a piece for a souvenir. Okay, that was 35 years ago, but when Lord Elgin stole the Parthenon Marbles in the early 1800s you can certainly understand him genuinely believing that it was an act of preservation as well as appropriation.

Would the Greeks do a better job today? Sure, probably. But five will get you ten they'll be doing it with someone else's money.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Solitudinarian wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:17
Jennifer wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 22:37Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
If by "stole" you mean "saved them for humanity from certain destruction", I don't think it's that ballsy.
If by “saved them for humanity” you mean “took them to decorate his house and sold them at a loss to cover divorce costs” then you’re totally accurate.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Mo wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:59
Solitudinarian wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:17
Jennifer wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 22:37Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
If by "stole" you mean "saved them for humanity from certain destruction", I don't think it's that ballsy.
If by “saved them for humanity” you mean “took them to decorate his house and sold them at a loss to cover divorce costs” then you’re totally accurate.
True, but that points to the fact that he bought them from the Turks (okay, the Ottoman Empire) and that when he sold them, Greece was still under Ottoman rule. Now maybe some sixteen years later when Greece finally won its independence the right thing to do would have been for the British Museum to return them, but Elgin still probably did the right thing at the time.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

I recall reading that the Taj Mahal came very close to being destroyed by the British; this was only avoided at the last minute because some previous auction didn't take in much money, so they figured it would not be profitable to wreck the building and sell it for parts after all.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

D.A. Ridgely wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 15:07
Mo wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:59
Solitudinarian wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 14:17
Jennifer wrote: 18 Feb 2020, 22:37Naming them after the guy who stole them in the first place was a pretty ballsy move.
If by "stole" you mean "saved them for humanity from certain destruction", I don't think it's that ballsy.
If by “saved them for humanity” you mean “took them to decorate his house and sold them at a loss to cover divorce costs” then you’re totally accurate.
True, but that points to the fact that he bought them from the Turks (okay, the Ottoman Empire) and that when he sold them, Greece was still under Ottoman rule. Now maybe some sixteen years later when Greece finally won its independence the right thing to do would have been for the British Museum to return them, but Elgin still probably did the right thing at the time.
The authenticity of the letter authorizing it is very questionable and no one has ever seen a record of it on the Ottoman side.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

If they do go back to Greece, I hope the British record every possible detail by every means available and make really good replicas before sending them back.

I would not be surprised if big pieces got stolen from the Greeks and wound up in some billionaire's private collection.
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