Asa's 11 days

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fyodor
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by fyodor »

thoreau wrote:
Painboy wrote:From what I have read on it, getting killed by a firing squad was often seen as too honorable a death for a criminal, strange as that may sound to modern ears. There is also the psychological concern of the executioners being made to shoot someone in cold blood. It's quite different than simply flipping a switch.

Of course not having executions would solve both problems.
If it's hard to get people to agree to do it, and hard to find a method that satisfies everyone's moral sensibilities, maybe that's telling us something....

Everyone seems to want an execution method whereby an executioner makes the most minimal of motions and then the condemned man's eyes promptly shut as his body goes completely limp and the heart monitor flatlines. If that is the only way that people will accept killing other people, well, that actually speaks well of us in a way. And if it's impossible to do that, maybe that's telling us something.
I like to gauge arguments that justify my own POV on the basis of how comfortable I would feel using said argument on someone who does not share my POV.

And on that basis, this one fails fairly miserably, sorry.

For one thing, maybe it means we're just being wimps about it.

More significantly, it would leave me very vulnerable to similar arguments that have been advanced in opposition to legal abortion.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy
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Mo
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Mo »

thoreau wrote:Another issue is that if you really want this to be quick and painless then you probably want to destroy the condemned man's brain in a fraction of a second, e.g. aim a few large-caliber guns at the head and pull the trigger. But now it's messy to watch and messy to clean up. And that's traumatic for the witnesses and prison staff.

So they want a method of killing that spills as little blood as possible, and causes as little visible damage to the body as possible. A fast overdose with no convulsions or foaming or anything would satisfy that requirement, but the drugs don't always work that way.

So they have this dilemma, where they want to kill without any participants having to deal with anything unpleasant (except, you know, the whole "marching a man to the execution chamber and putting him into whatever device they ultimately come up with" part) and with some plausible denial about pain and suffering during the actual execution (besides, you know, the whole "waiting to be marched to the execution chamber and knowing that the end will come any second" part).

Maybe they could just not kill people.
So Kim Jong Un is the real humanitarian.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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fyodor
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by fyodor »

thoreau wrote:Another issue is that if you really want this to be quick and painless then you probably want to destroy the condemned man's brain in a fraction of a second, e.g. aim a few large-caliber guns at the head and pull the trigger. But now it's messy to watch and messy to clean up. And that's traumatic for the witnesses and prison staff.

So they want a method of killing that spills as little blood as possible, and causes as little visible damage to the body as possible. A fast overdose with no convulsions or foaming or anything would satisfy that requirement, but the drugs don't always work that way.

So they have this dilemma, where they want to kill without any participants having to deal with anything unpleasant (except, you know, the whole "marching a man to the execution chamber and putting him into whatever device they ultimately come up with" part) and with some plausible denial about pain and suffering during the actual execution (besides, you know, the whole "waiting to be marched to the execution chamber and knowing that the end will come any second" part).

Maybe they could just not kill people.
Who be this "they"?

Don't forget, not everyone who believes in some sort of public policy option thinks about it the same way.

I would guess that the vast majority of capital punishment supporters couldn't care less how it was done.

But of course, there's its marginal supporters, who wield a lot of power due to their position on the fence.

I wouldn't disagree that "they" wants to have their cake and eat it too. But even that "they" may be too uncertain and fickle to really be thought of in any sort of concrete manner.

All that said, I believe the court system has also played a large role in this weird outcome we have.
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thoreau
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Mo wrote:
thoreau wrote:Another issue is that if you really want this to be quick and painless then you probably want to destroy the condemned man's brain in a fraction of a second, e.g. aim a few large-caliber guns at the head and pull the trigger. But now it's messy to watch and messy to clean up. And that's traumatic for the witnesses and prison staff.

So they want a method of killing that spills as little blood as possible, and causes as little visible damage to the body as possible. A fast overdose with no convulsions or foaming or anything would satisfy that requirement, but the drugs don't always work that way.

So they have this dilemma, where they want to kill without any participants having to deal with anything unpleasant (except, you know, the whole "marching a man to the execution chamber and putting him into whatever device they ultimately come up with" part) and with some plausible denial about pain and suffering during the actual execution (besides, you know, the whole "waiting to be marched to the execution chamber and knowing that the end will come any second" part).

Maybe they could just not kill people.
So Kim Jong Un is the real humanitarian.
Well, ceteris is rarely paribis. When the heavy artillery executions are done publicly as a tool of intimidation, that has to be counted in the "State Terror" column or somesuch when doing humanitarian rankings. And how do we even know that they're aiming in such a way as to produce a quick death?
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Mo
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Mo »

thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
thoreau wrote:Another issue is that if you really want this to be quick and painless then you probably want to destroy the condemned man's brain in a fraction of a second, e.g. aim a few large-caliber guns at the head and pull the trigger. But now it's messy to watch and messy to clean up. And that's traumatic for the witnesses and prison staff.

So they want a method of killing that spills as little blood as possible, and causes as little visible damage to the body as possible. A fast overdose with no convulsions or foaming or anything would satisfy that requirement, but the drugs don't always work that way.

So they have this dilemma, where they want to kill without any participants having to deal with anything unpleasant (except, you know, the whole "marching a man to the execution chamber and putting him into whatever device they ultimately come up with" part) and with some plausible denial about pain and suffering during the actual execution (besides, you know, the whole "waiting to be marched to the execution chamber and knowing that the end will come any second" part).

Maybe they could just not kill people.
So Kim Jong Un is the real humanitarian.
Well, ceteris is rarely paribis. When the heavy artillery executions are done publicly as a tool of intimidation, that has to be counted in the "State Terror" column or somesuch when doing humanitarian rankings. And how do we even know that they're aiming in such a way as to produce a quick death?
Seems pretty hard to aim an AA gun to lead to a slow death.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex
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thoreau
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by thoreau »

Blow their legs off. They'll bleed out in a minute or two, which is worse than dying in a fraction of a second.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote:Blow their legs off. They'll bleed out in a minute or two, which is worse than dying in a fraction of a second.
If Bzial was still around, he might be able to tell for sure, but I think the concussive force of an AA round transmitted through body tissue would be immediately fatal pretty well anywhere above the knee or elbows.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Ledell Lee was executed last night.
In Lee’s case, the records show shocking failures of his defense attorneys, both at trial and post-conviction, which were compounded by egregious conflicts of interest. His trial judge was having an affair with the prosecutor; the two would later get married. The same judge later expressed his regret at appointing a lawyer to Lee’s state habeas proceeding who showed up to court obviously intoxicated. A state prosecutor raised concerns that the attorney was slurring his words, stumbling in the courtroom, and speaking incoherently, while “introducing the same items of evidence over and over again.” Later, the judge told the lawyer that he was unaware he had only recently been in rehab. “If I had known that, I would not have put you on this case,” he said.
https://theintercept.com/2017/04/20/ark ... rate-them/
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Andrew
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Andrew »

Besides bombing hospitals, government is also just another word for the people we choose to cage and kill together.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by nicole »

Andrew wrote:Besides bombing hospitals, government is also just another word for the people we choose to cage and kill together.
Yeah, it's mostly the latter.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by nicole »

Two executions set for tonight, including that of Marcel Williams, the man profiled in the Intercept story about victims and mercy I linked at the top of this thread.
Two federal judges ruled against the inmates in separate cases Sunday. One denied a stay of execution to Williams, saying that the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has jurisdiction in the case. Another federal judge denied the inmates' request for changes to the rules for witnesses to view the executions.

After the setback in a lower court, both inmates on Sunday asked the appeals court to halt their executions based on their poor health.

Lawyers for Jones' say he suffers from diabetes and is on insulin, has high blood pressure, neuropathy and had one leg amputated below the knee. He is on heavy doses of drugs they say could prevent the lethal injection drug midazolam from working and lead to a "tortuous death."

Williams' lawyers say he weighs 400 pounds and it will be difficult to find a vein for lethal injunction, so the drugs are unlikely to work as intended.
https://apnews.com/f5105c1f0d4e4accab1130e0fe4d7ef3
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Weren't there some cultures where, if an innocent person was put to death, the accuser would be put to death in the same way?
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Aresen wrote:Weren't there some cultures where, if an innocent person was put to death, the accuser would be put to death in the same way?
Stalin's Russia, but it wasn't causal, just statistical.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by nicole »

Prison staff spent 45 minutes attempting to insert a central line into Jones's neck before his execution and ultimately failed. Some witnesses believed he was conscious while paralyzed.

Williams filed an emergency stay based on this which failed. Both men were killed last night.

(see @LilianaSegura for coverage)
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Re: Asa's 11 days

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"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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Re: Asa's 11 days

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Last night, Kenneth Williams was the fourth and final prisoner killed by Arkansas, to the sounds of jerks and convulsions: https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/a ... -execution
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by thoreau »

DNA test strongly suggests that one of the guys was innocent.

https://katv.com/amp/news/local/tests-r ... mates-case
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote: 04 May 2021, 13:37 DNA test strongly suggests that one of the guys was innocent.

https://katv.com/amp/news/local/tests-r ... mates-case
I think we all know that innocent people have most likely been executed murdered by the state. I almost wish there was a hell for the cops and prosecutors responsible.

I note in this case that the DNA and fingerprints do not match any in their current databases. That means at least one guilty person is walking around free.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Hugh Akston »

Well the important thing is that the state murdered innocent people in a humane and painless manner.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by Warren »

Hugh Akston wrote: 04 May 2021, 15:11 Well the important thing is that the state murdered innocent people in a humane and painless manner.
I thought the important thing was that the state murdered the right innocent people.
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Re: Asa's 11 days

Post by lunchstealer »

Warren wrote: Yesterday, 00:16
Hugh Akston wrote: 04 May 2021, 15:11 Well the important thing is that the state murdered innocent people in a humane and painless manner.
I thought the important thing was that the state murdered the right innocent people.
procedures were followed
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