Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Jennifer
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

I honestly don't know what to think or how optimistic/pessimistic I should be. What scares me, in addition to concerns of Trump stealing the election via untraceable voting machines, dismissing mail-in ballots, more disenfranchisement shenanigans such as we've seen in Georgia, etc., is that the Trump supporters I know -- not just internet-only friends, but various IRL friends and acquaintances, some dating back to elementary school (and thus "grandfathered in," friendshipwise; it's unlikely the adults we are today would've hit it off, if not for that old connection) -- is that where Trump vs. the Democrats are concerned, the Trump supporters I know have almost the mindset of Internet trolls, only without the malice (or at least, if there is malice it's buried so deep, the Trumpster in question honestly doesn't know it's there, and even I can't detect signs of it beyond "WTF, after all this you're still going to vote for Trump?").

By "mindset of Internet trolls" I mean: without dragging up old forum drama, I will say that the "old timers" on this forum may remember back in the day we had a few trolls with a definite dislike for either me personally, or "libertarians" in general. And one thing these trolls all had in common was, when I or any "libertarian" was concerned, anything we could possibly say or do was interpreted in the absolute worst possible light -- sometimes lights so bizarre, ordinary human vision cannot actually see them -- and of course, since they're trolls (or perhaps sincere people only with confirmation bias to or beyond the point of outright delusion), they are either deliberately obtuse, or impervious to reason, and nothing you or anyone else says to try changing their minds will make ANY bit of difference at ALL.

I have a friend I've known at least since high school -- I attended her 16th birthday party -- genuinely nice person, helped me a lot when my mom was at her psycho-est, we reconnected on Facebook a few years ago -- she seems to still be a very nice person, though a bit more "openly noticeably Christian" than anyone at the Gryll or my overall circle of friends and acquaintances tends to be (she'll share Jesus memes or Christianity Today articles on Facebook, for example) -- few days ago, she posted a USA Today article "I'm Billy Graham's granddaughter. Evangelical support of Donald Trump spits on his legacy."

One of her MAGA friends immediately responded with "She sounds soooo misguided and ill-informed. I think Franklin Graham, Billy son, has a much greater perspective. Does she really support the pro-abortion candidate? I'm sorry I took the time." My friend responded "It is really hard to figure out, once again, who the right candidate would be? I can't say I am excited about either for the reason you mentioned and the reasons she mentioned."

So another guy (whose name sounds super-familiar; I wouldn't be surprised if he's another old schoolmate I don't consciously remember) responded with various complaints about things Trump has said and done -- the open support of bigotry and violence, the concentration camps, the covid bungling, etc. Her own sister chimed in with other bad things Trump did. This went on for a bit, ten my friend responded "[Guy whose name sounds familiar to me], "I am glad it is clear cut for you. I will be looking hard at the candidates, their histories, their pledges, and will choose accordingly. Trump does better with his actions than he does with his words. I won't say he has done a bad job with this presidency."

Which inspired more comments from that guy and her sister, all bringing up still MORE bad things Trump has said or done, and a few comments later I joined the fray, quoted her statement "Trump does better with his actions than he does with his words. I won't say he has done a bad job with this presidency." and then said: "I ask this in all sincerity: which "actions" would these be? The only decent thing I can think of him doing off the top of my head was pardoning Alice Johnson, and even that was done not due to Trump having some principled complaint about the cruelties of our criminal "justice" system, but because Kim Kardashian (who was already attempting to call attention to Johnson's plight) sufficiently stoked Trump's ego via posing for photos with him and so forth. But otherwise, what good things has Trump done for this country or the people in it?"

She did not answer my question or address any other points brought up by her sister or the familiar guy, but a few comments later she eventually said: "I did not say I was voting for Trump at any point, but I do feel attacked. I said I would study the candidates and choose carefully. I said I didn't like my choices. I am glad every one is so passionate. Yes, there are bad and good things done by Trump. I am not going to defend or attack anyone to support my right to evaluate all of the candidates (yes, there are more than 2) before I make my choice. Thank you for your insight."

Bear in mind: at NO POINT did anybody say anything bad about Trump voters or her personally (other than to ask "How could horrid things X, Y and Z not be deal-breakers for you?"), and every anti-Trump comment was "Here's an actual bad thing he said, did or is doing," not "He's a stupid cheeto with a bad toupee, ha ha." And the anti-Trump criticisms were coming from her own dear sister, plus two people whom (I suspect) she's known since at LEAST the late 1980s if not earlier. She's even reading and sharing anti-Trump articles herself (written from an evangelical Christian perspective). But still -- she's not sure who to vote for, and feels "attacked" when people criticize Trump.

And she's one of the nicer pro-Trump or "maybe Trump, despite qualms" people I know. As for the others -- every time a cop shoots someone they always find a reason why it's okay, they definitely think the protesters are a far bigger problem than what they're protesting, they'll talk about Biden's handsy behavior whilst completely ignoring the far worse allegations against (and boasts from) Trump himself; anyone who criticizes Trump's "grab 'em by the pussy" remark is far more offensive than Trump himself was for making it; Hillary absolutely would've been worse in every aspect; when Trump says something so bad even they can't excuse it they just handwave it away or bring up either A) something bad done by a Democrat or B) a personal attack against whoever brought it up, maybe they have a problem with how you worded it so let's focus on THAT rather than the actual substance of your remark, etc. There is absolutely no reasoning with these people. They're the ones Trump was talking about when he said he could shoot someone and get away with it. And they are frighteningly more common than I thought they were.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b
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thoreau
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by thoreau »

Confession time: While I think the cops handled the Jacob Blake situation poorly (they need to figure out how to de-escalate, or at least keep themselves between the suspect and the car filled with kids), I think he's a bad poster child for police excesses. The cops were there because he violated a restraining order and had an arrest warrant for sexual assault against the woman with the restraining order. If police reform movements hang too much of their case on this guy, it will work out poorly for them.

What I wonder is how this will affect the people who will decide Wisconsin's electoral votes: White women in Waukesha (Milwaukee suburb) who aren't entirely comfortable when "urban" types show up in the Brookfield Square mall, but also don't like a Twitter troll who grabs women by the pussy.

If Blake's criminal allegations get traction in WI, Kamala Harris should go to a socially-distanced gathering of Oconomowoc Karens and say that she's locked up plenty of men for grabbing women by the pussy (which is literally what Jacob Blake is accused of) and she'd like to put away a few more, regardless of whether they reside by Lake Michigan or Mar Lago. Have Culver's cater the event.

Trump would be finished right then and there.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

thoreau wrote: 31 Aug 2020, 15:21 Confession time: While I think the cops handled the Jacob Blake situation poorly (they need to figure out how to de-escalate, or at least keep themselves between the suspect and the car filled with kids), I think he's a bad poster child for police excesses. The cops were there because he violated a restraining order and had an arrest warrant for sexual assault against the woman with the restraining order. If police reform movements hang too much of their case on this guy, it will work out poorly for them.

What I wonder is how this will affect the people who will decide Wisconsin's electoral votes: White women in Waukesha (Milwaukee suburb) who aren't entirely comfortable when "urban" types show up in the Brookfield Square mall, but also don't like a Twitter troll who grabs women by the pussy.

If Blake's criminal allegations get traction in WI, Kamala Harris should go to a socially-distanced gathering of Oconomowoc Karens and say that she's locked up plenty of men for grabbing women by the pussy (which is literally what Jacob Blake is accused of) and she'd like to put away a few more, regardless of whether they reside by Lake Michigan or Mar Lago. Have Culver's cater the event.

Trump would be finished right then and there.
Badgelickers drag out the "he's no angel" argument for every black person who gets gunned down by the cops, regardless of the relevance to the situation. It's a dog whistle used to make it look like he had it coming.

It's not clear whether Blake was armed during the incident. What is clear is that there were multiple officers on the scene who could have teamed up to subdue him. Instead they shot him seven times in the back.
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thoreau
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by thoreau »

The cops were wrong. No doubt about it. As long as the questions are about them, I'm on the police reform side.

And, yes, they trot out "he's no angel" every time, which is why reformers need to pick poster children for whom the charge won't have much traction. Jacob Blake doesn't seem like the guy.

Mind you, I'm not convinced he's guilty of sexual assault. It could very well be that his accuser is a liar, or that there's something else going on here. But I also think it's pretty risky to make him a poster child. Breonna Taylor is a much better example. And, frankly, George Floyd, because regardless of his background, his case wasn't about any split-second decisions, but an 8-minute decision to keep the knee on the gasping man's neck.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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lunchstealer
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote: 31 Aug 2020, 15:37 The cops were wrong. No doubt about it. As long as the questions are about them, I'm on the police reform side.

And, yes, they trot out "he's no angel" every time, which is why reformers need to pick poster children for whom the charge won't have much traction. Jacob Blake doesn't seem like the guy.

Mind you, I'm not convinced he's guilty of sexual assault. It could very well be that his accuser is a liar, or that there's something else going on here. But I also think it's pretty risky to make him a poster child. Breonna Taylor is a much better example. And, frankly, George Floyd, because regardless of his background, his case wasn't about any split-second decisions, but an 8-minute decision to keep the knee on the gasping man's neck.
Well it was only a four-minute decision to knee a gasping man's neck. After that it was three-and-change minutes of keeping a knee on a dead man's neck.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

lunchstealer wrote: 31 Aug 2020, 16:06
thoreau wrote: 31 Aug 2020, 15:37 The cops were wrong. No doubt about it. As long as the questions are about them, I'm on the police reform side.

And, yes, they trot out "he's no angel" every time, which is why reformers need to pick poster children for whom the charge won't have much traction. Jacob Blake doesn't seem like the guy.

Mind you, I'm not convinced he's guilty of sexual assault. It could very well be that his accuser is a liar, or that there's something else going on here. But I also think it's pretty risky to make him a poster child. Breonna Taylor is a much better example. And, frankly, George Floyd, because regardless of his background, his case wasn't about any split-second decisions, but an 8-minute decision to keep the knee on the gasping man's neck.
Well it was only a four-minute decision to knee a gasping man's neck. After that it was three-and-change minutes of keeping a knee on a dead man's neck.
And if I were defending the cop, I'd argue that in mitigation. "There's no law, after all, against kneeing the neck of a corpse unless it reaches the level of desecration and we respectfully request a jury instruction to that effect, your honor."
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

The merit of the allegations doesn't matter at all. He's not going to rape the cops who are trying to arrest him. All that matters at the moment of of the stop is whether he is armed and presents a clear danger at that moment. Even if he's drunk and waving a knife around, the responsibility of the cops is to de-escalate the situation or subdue him non-lethally. That's the message we need to send the cops and copsuckers alike.

That being said, there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of ideal victims over the years, and we're still not seeing reforms. If Tamir Rice isn't enough to convince people that cops are out of control, I'm not sure what would be.
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Jennifer
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

Hugh Akston wrote: 31 Aug 2020, 16:20 That being said, there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of ideal victims over the years, and we're still not seeing reforms. If Tamir Rice isn't enough to convince people that cops are out of control, I'm not sure what would be.
Hell, Daniel Shaver wasn't enough, and he was a white guy and there's security footage showing the degrading "crawl on all fours like a dog" ritual the cop made him perform before shooting him.
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dead_elvis
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by dead_elvis »

Yeah it would be nice to push back on the look-at-the-monkey distraction that is the no-angel defense rather than just give in and say no protesting unless they are a poster child. Keep the focus on the actions not the ad hominems.
Last edited by dead_elvis on 01 Sep 2020, 14:05, edited 1 time in total.
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JD
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by JD »

Not sure if this was posted here, but it's a pretty interesting examination of why there seem to be so few moderate Republicans: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... cans-left/

It's not perfect: it suffers a bit from the booga-booga-libertarians! thing without ever bothering to resolve how libertarians can simultaneously be the hidden masters behind the scenes and still not seem to be able to affect any actual policy.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

The weather was calm, the atmosphere festive. Which made it all the more surprising when several boats sank Saturday at an event put on by Trump supporters near Austin, Texas.

"Decorate your boats in patriotic colors and fly as many Trump flags as she can handle!" the Facebook page for the Lake Travis Trump Boat Parade encouraged. "Let's really make a statement!"

The statement wasn't what they intended. When the hundreds of boats started moving together, their wakes created unexpected turbulence. Before long, the Travis County Sheriff's Office had received 15 distress calls. It received three more reports of boats taking on water from a local towing company.
Most of the boats taking on water were able to be towed before they sank to the bottom of the lake, the sheriff's office said. Ultimately, five boats did sink during the event. Three of those were recovered, but two remained submerged Sunday.
I sure wish I could derive some symbolism from this incident, but I got nothing.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by lunchstealer »

Hugh Akston wrote: 09 Sep 2020, 17:23
The weather was calm, the atmosphere festive. Which made it all the more surprising when several boats sank Saturday at an event put on by Trump supporters near Austin, Texas.

"Decorate your boats in patriotic colors and fly as many Trump flags as she can handle!" the Facebook page for the Lake Travis Trump Boat Parade encouraged. "Let's really make a statement!"

The statement wasn't what they intended. When the hundreds of boats started moving together, their wakes created unexpected turbulence. Before long, the Travis County Sheriff's Office had received 15 distress calls. It received three more reports of boats taking on water from a local towing company.
Most of the boats taking on water were able to be towed before they sank to the bottom of the lake, the sheriff's office said. Ultimately, five boats did sink during the event. Three of those were recovered, but two remained submerged Sunday.
I sure wish I could derive some symbolism from this incident, but I got nothing.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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USS Cofveve sunk by God (Battle of Dumbkirk 2020)
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

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