Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer » 25 Jun 2019, 16:05

Ellie wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 12:54
thoreau wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 11:03
Shouldn't Bootie Jig be the bottom?

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That reminds me, I never did type up my response rant to that post someone shared where some MRA/PUA (I think) dink was saying if we have a gay president he needs to be a top. YOU IDIOT, YOU WANT A BOTTOM IN COMMAND. It's like that guy knows nothing of gay love.
That was Chris "Crying Nazi" Cantwell, BTW.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren » 25 Jun 2019, 19:55

JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 15:24
Andrew wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 14:50
JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 10:20
So Bernie Sanders has decided to one-up Elizabeth Warren on the free-shit-for-everybody angle by cancelling all student debt. The only thing that's really surprised me is the amount of critical commentary in mainstream media.
I'll get a check for the loans I've paid off, right?
One of the articles I saw did point out that this amounts to a massive benefit to people with unpaid student loans, while doing nothing for people who didn't go to college at all, or who didn't take out loans, or who already paid off their loans, etc. A counter-argument that I saw could basically be rephrased as "if you have a problem with this, you're a mean old meanie who's only motivated by envy".
Yeah, I'm all nope nope nope on programs that reward the most irresponsible people most. I give the same thumbs down on free prison college for the same reason.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer » 25 Jun 2019, 20:43

Warren wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 19:55
JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 15:24
Andrew wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 14:50
JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 10:20
So Bernie Sanders has decided to one-up Elizabeth Warren on the free-shit-for-everybody angle by cancelling all student debt. The only thing that's really surprised me is the amount of critical commentary in mainstream media.
I'll get a check for the loans I've paid off, right?
One of the articles I saw did point out that this amounts to a massive benefit to people with unpaid student loans, while doing nothing for people who didn't go to college at all, or who didn't take out loans, or who already paid off their loans, etc. A counter-argument that I saw could basically be rephrased as "if you have a problem with this, you're a mean old meanie who's only motivated by envy".
Yeah, I'm all nope nope nope on programs that reward the most irresponsible people most. I give the same thumbs down on free prison college for the same reason.
What about bankruptcy laws -- specifically, the option for certain over-their-head debtors to declare bankruptcy -- should we do away with those too?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2019, 01:34

Jennifer wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 20:43
Warren wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 19:55
JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 15:24
Andrew wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 14:50
JD wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 10:20
So Bernie Sanders has decided to one-up Elizabeth Warren on the free-shit-for-everybody angle by cancelling all student debt. The only thing that's really surprised me is the amount of critical commentary in mainstream media.
I'll get a check for the loans I've paid off, right?
One of the articles I saw did point out that this amounts to a massive benefit to people with unpaid student loans, while doing nothing for people who didn't go to college at all, or who didn't take out loans, or who already paid off their loans, etc. A counter-argument that I saw could basically be rephrased as "if you have a problem with this, you're a mean old meanie who's only motivated by envy".
Yeah, I'm all nope nope nope on programs that reward the most irresponsible people most. I give the same thumbs down on free prison college for the same reason.
What about bankruptcy laws -- specifically, the option for certain over-their-head debtors to declare bankruptcy -- should we do away with those too?
As a former loans officer and debt collector, I used to grind my teeth over people who got themselves into holes too deep to dig their way out of it. They were irresponsible and stupid, but there really was no other way out for them. Trying to 'punish' them by not allowing them to go bankrupt and discharge their debts was just as stupid as the people themselves and absolutely counter-productive.

Plus, I lay a lot of the blame on the lenders for continuing to lend when the debtors were already over their heads. I saw people with $50k in credit card debt with interest rates between 21% and 29.9%. Obviously, the credit card companies are making up the losses on the backs of people who are just on the edge.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren » 26 Jun 2019, 10:48

Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 01:34
As a former loans officer and debt collector, I used to grind my teeth over people who got themselves into holes too deep to dig their way out of it. They were irresponsible and stupid, but there really was no other way out for them. Trying to 'punish' them by not allowing them to go bankrupt and discharge their debts was just as stupid as the people themselves and absolutely counter-productive.

Plus, I lay a lot of the blame on the lenders for continuing to lend when the debtors were already over their heads. I saw people with $50k in credit card debt with interest rates between 21% and 29.9%. Obviously, the credit card companies are making up the losses on the backs of people who are just on the edge.
Bankruptcy is part of our capitalist economy. Then again, so is occupational licensing. But bankruptcy keeps things functioning. Leaving people saddled with debt they can never get out from under is a recipe for civil unrest. Your points about not allowing discharge of debt being counter productive, and the culpability of the lenders are well taken. Further, bankruptcy isn't the free pass people imagine it to be. It's an ordeal to go through and it follows you. I don't see bankruptcy as rewarding irresponsibility.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by nicole » 26 Jun 2019, 11:05

Yeah exactly. Bankruptcy isn’t remotely the same as debt forgiveness.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2019, 11:17

I was thinking specifically of the parts of the Bankruptcy code dealing with student loans. In Canada, student loans cannot be extinguished by bankruptcy until seven years after leaving school. (Though there are exception clauses built into the [/]Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act[/i] that permit extinguishment sooner in certain circumstances.) This came about because significant numbers of students were filing bankruptcy immediately after leaving school. The government (and popular opinion) decided that the students should be required to make an attempt to establish themselves in their intended profession and potentially earn enough to permit repayment.

I understand the US Bankruptcy Code is harsher in this respect.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren » 26 Jun 2019, 11:42

The thing about student loans, is you can't repossess an education. So I can see the argument for not allowing discharge of student loans. But ultimately I don't buy it. Students with debt they can never hope to repay are in exactly the situation bankruptcy was designed to deal with. The problem isn't student loans so much as government meddling. If lenders knew they had to eat the loss of loans that were not repaid, they'd be much more selective on how many, how much, and to whom, they wrote. And that would likely yield more wide spread benefits to the state of secondary education.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Mo » 26 Jun 2019, 12:14

I wouldn't mind a no discharging until 7 years of non-schooling (i.e. clock pauses if you go back to school, so you can't discharge undergrad debt during your Ph.D).
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jasper » 26 Jun 2019, 12:22

At least Yang is honest about trying to buy your vote for $1000/month.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren » 26 Jun 2019, 12:24

Jasper wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 12:22
At least Yang is honest about trying to buy your vote for $1000/month.
SOLD!
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jasper » 26 Jun 2019, 12:47

YANG GANG!

DOWN WITH KHOMS!

SAY THE SACRED WORDS!
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau » 26 Jun 2019, 13:01

Housing is a human right. Somebody make my mortgage payment go away.

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer » 26 Jun 2019, 14:14

Jasper wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 12:47
YANG GANG!

DOWN WITH KHOMS!

SAY THE SACRED WORDS!
Weh le peppleh!
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jun 2019, 16:14

Warren wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 11:42
The thing about student loans, is you can't repossess an education.
The same holds true for lots of debts, though -- you can't repossess a medical procedure or car repair, food you've eaten or vacations you've taken -- but you CAN declare bankruptcy over the HELOC or credit-card debts you used to pay for these things.


IIRC, the "no bankruptcy for student loans" law was founded on a lie -- supposedly, there were buttloads of people taking on high debts and then immediately declaring bankruptcy before starting six-figure-salary jobs, except there weren't.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by JasonL » 26 Jun 2019, 17:15

Mo wrote:I wouldn't mind a no discharging until 7 years of non-schooling (i.e. clock pauses if you go back to school, so you can't discharge undergrad debt during your Ph.D).
Co-sign. My instinct was 10 but I’d only put up slap fight resistance to 7.

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer » 26 Jun 2019, 17:23

JasonL wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 17:15
Mo wrote:I wouldn't mind a no discharging until 7 years of non-schooling (i.e. clock pauses if you go back to school, so you can't discharge undergrad debt during your Ph.D).
Co-sign. My instinct was 10 but I’d only put up slap fight resistance to 7.
10 was my instinct as well
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2019, 17:42

Jennifer wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 16:14
IIRC, the "no bankruptcy for student loans" law was founded on a lie -- supposedly, there were buttloads of people taking on high debts and then immediately declaring bankruptcy before starting six-figure-salary jobs, except there weren't.
That was the trigger for the 7 year rule in Canada. In the 1970s and 1980s, it very much became the thing to do - openly advocated by left wing student groups. A first time bankrupt in Canada gets an automatic discharge nine months after filing, so long as they follow the required procedures - monthly income and expense reports, two or three sessions of financial counselling. By law, the record of the bankruptcy falls off their credit report 6 years later, which is almost the correct time for them to go looking for a first home and mortgage.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Taktix® » 27 Jun 2019, 00:27

So when I moved into my apartment four years ago this Monday, I had to undertake an approval process that included an interview with a few members of the HOA board. I met with two guys, one older Israeli dude and a younger, chunky, ginger, crew-cut Florida man with big white Dodge RAM and, as it turned out, a Spencer's black "Security" shirt. It was 2015, and despite my disclosing it on my application, these two board members proceeded to grill me about the details of my DUI in 2009, in front of my children, which included a threat to be watching me for "slipping up".

The complex is the lone affordable complex in a neighborhood/school district of larger, suburban houses, and thus lacks a gate. So, when I moved in, I quickly discovered these two board members take it upon themselves to make rounds as some self-appointed community watch, the younger guy wearing said "Security" shirt, the older guy with some massive fucking fuzzball of a huge poodle/great dane something of a pupper, oftentimes at night, between 12-1 a.m., ostensibly looking for illegal parking but clearly presenting a show of force.

This younger guy, the one with a big white Dodge RAM, slapped a big TRUMP/thin blue line sticker on his truck in 2016 and has begun what I can only describe as a Make Jacaranda Lakes Great Again program of chasing off kids under 13 using the tennis court, shoeing a bunch of my daughter's friends away one day for using sidewalk chalk (which is technically mentioned in the HOA rules but enforcement has been lax for years), and he even walked across the complex to tell me that I was not permitted to wash my car outside the designated car washing area in the back (which has a shitty, coin-operated hose and I spent good money on a proper garden hose and other car care accessories).

The boot of the man had clearly begun to stomp on my face forever.

But I'm happy to report that progress has been made. A board ruling recently reinstated the right of 5-year-olds and above to use the tennis courts so long as they are actually playing tennis. And just a few days ago, I noticed Mr. Dodge RAM had removed his Trump/TBL decal. I don't know the guy very well, but I like to think one of the recent atrocities was finally the last straw, the bridge too far, even for a guy like him.

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by dead_elvis » 27 Jun 2019, 00:44

Jennifer wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 16:14


IIRC, the "no bankruptcy for student loans" law was founded on a lie -- supposedly, there were buttloads of people taking on high debts and then immediately declaring bankruptcy before starting six-figure-salary jobs, except there weren't.
Still, one of my high school teachers openly bragged to us that she dodged her loans and as much as advised us that paying it back was for chumps (made it sound like their record keeping/enforcement was disorganized and lax).
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jasper » 27 Jun 2019, 10:25

Taktix® wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 00:27

A have hope that, from this dark night, a morning will come...
Ugh, that sucks. One of the disqualifying factors when my wife and I were looking at houses in FL was HOA or deed-restricted neighborhoods. And they're a bit difficult to find unless you look in older, established neighborhoods from the 50s & 60s. It seemed like all planned development tracts since then have gone HOA or deed-restrictions.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 27 Jun 2019, 16:29

Per Warren's comment about not being able to repossess an education, I'm not sure I see the difference between someone who runs up $100k's in debt pursuing a college degree or pursuing a failed business or, for that matter, maxing out plastic and home equity loans on hookers and blow.

There being no debtors prisons, it's still quite possible for many people to go their entire lives blowing off their student loans and the only adverse consequences are bad credit. Well, lots of people who never darkened a college's admissions office door have bad credit. BFD.

Debt forgiveness is absurd vote pandering (and, no surprise, ignoring the blame the state bears in the first place), but there's no reason why it has to be either/or on student loan discharge in bankruptcy. Gawd forbid, however, anyone running for office suggested a nuanced, balanced or reasonable solution to anything.

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer » 27 Jun 2019, 16:43

dead_elvis wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 00:44
Jennifer wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 16:14


IIRC, the "no bankruptcy for student loans" law was founded on a lie -- supposedly, there were buttloads of people taking on high debts and then immediately declaring bankruptcy before starting six-figure-salary jobs, except there weren't.
Still, one of my high school teachers openly bragged to us that she dodged her loans and as much as advised us that paying it back was for chumps (made it sound like their record keeping/enforcement was disorganized and lax).
Not knowing anything more than what you've said here, I'd suggest THAT specific problem was either "the teacher committed some type of fraud (hiding assets, etc.), or the bankruptcy judge in question wasn't doing his damn job." Because my understanding of bankruptcy law -- and of course, I say this as someone who is not a lawyer and fortunately has no personal experience with bankruptcy -- is that you can NOT simply declare bankruptcy anytime you want. because "Meh, I don't feel like paying back those loans" -- it's got to be approved by a judge AFTER it's been determined "It's not that you don't WANT to pay your loans; it's that, based on your current and reasonable-projected-future earnings and assets, you probably CAN'T pay off those loans."

Even if bankruptcy were an option for student loans, and had been when I finished school, I doubt I could've gone bankrupt with an honest judge, because IIRC my max debt was only slightly more than one year's pretax salary, at the time, and as a single person, no dependents, no chronic health issues or any "extra" expenses over a typical American of my age and salary, that debt was not high enough to warrant bankruptcy.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jake » 27 Jun 2019, 16:57

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 16:29
Per Warren's comment about not being able to repossess an education, I'm not sure I see the difference between someone who runs up $100k's in debt pursuing a college degree or pursuing a failed business or, for that matter, maxing out plastic and home equity loans on hookers and blow.
Indeed, my own attempts to repossess hookers have, thus far, come to naught. Just another disappointment, I suppose.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Andrew » 27 Jun 2019, 17:27

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 16:29
There being no debtors prisons, it's still quite possible for many people to go their entire lives blowing off their student loans and the only adverse consequences are bad credit.
Although there is that Supreme Court ruling that SS payments can be garnished to pay student loan debts. That will be quite the epic battle in 30 years.
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