the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

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Mo
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 13 Oct 2018, 05:09

Eric the .5b wrote:activists for their destruction.
That’s stealing a base or three.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Oct 2018, 21:53

Mo wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 05:09
Eric the .5b wrote:activists for their destruction.
That’s stealing a base or three.
*shrug*

Governments do guilt-by-association. News at 11.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 11 Feb 2019, 22:13

Overall, I would say that the reaction to IIhan Omar's tweet rather proves her point:

Ilhan Omar: Congresswoman apologises for 'anti-Semitic' tweet

Basically, she said that criticizing Israel will get a congressman assraped by AIPAC, which is basically what happened to her for saying it. Congress and the talking heads leaped to defend AIPAC and condemn any criticism of AIPAC or Israel as "Anti-semitic."
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 12 Feb 2019, 07:18

The president makes genocide jokes about Native Americans and even Congresscritters from states with a large population defend him*. There is pretty much no universal pushback.

* Granted said critter is a Republican and a Cheney and therefore probably cool with genocide.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Feb 2019, 16:17

Aresen wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 22:13
Overall, I would say that the reaction to IIhan Omar's tweet rather proves her point:
I dunno, I think it's possible to criticize Israel without blowing anti-semitic dog-whistles and invoking Allah regarding an ethnic and religious conflict. It's not quite showing up to a public event in blackface and then griping about the ess-jay-dubyas causing the ensuing bad PR, but it's in the same direction.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 13 Feb 2019, 18:12

It is literally no different than critiques the left makes about the right wrt the NRA or the right makes about teachers’ unions. PACs buy influence and people criticize PACs for said influence buying. Also, literally the first bill passed by the Senate (S1) is an AIPAC supported bill that allows the government to punish people for supporting BDS. So the Senate’s #1 priority is to pass a bill that clearly violates 1A to benefit a single foreign country.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/senate-pa ... house/amp/
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Feb 2019, 19:09

Mo wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 18:12
It is literally no different than critiques the left makes about the right wrt the NRA or the right makes about teachers’ unions.
Given they usually manage to do so without stumbling across Nazi rhetoric or invoking a central religious conflict, I don't think so. She wasn't getting grief from the SJW crowd as well because they give a shit about AIPAC.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jennifer » 13 Feb 2019, 19:15

I don't see what's anti-Semitic about "It's all about the benjamins, baby" (specifically in response to Greenwald's tweet) -- that's such a well-known hip-hop slang term for $100 bills (or large sums of money in general) that even *my* white self has known about it for years.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Feb 2019, 19:18

Jennifer wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:15
I don't see what's anti-Semitic about "It's all about the benjamins, baby" (specifically in response to Greenwald's tweet) -- that's such a well-known hip-hop slang term for $100 bills (or large sums of money in general) that even *my* white self has known about it for years.
Perhaps find someone arguing that and ask them?
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jennifer » 13 Feb 2019, 19:31

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:18
Jennifer wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:15
I don't see what's anti-Semitic about "It's all about the benjamins, baby" (specifically in response to Greenwald's tweet) -- that's such a well-known hip-hop slang term for $100 bills (or large sums of money in general) that even *my* white self has known about it for years.
Perhaps find someone arguing that and ask them?
Well, that is the tweet which apparently started this brouhaha.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Feb 2019, 02:48

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:18
Jennifer wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:15
I don't see what's anti-Semitic about "It's all about the benjamins, baby" (specifically in response to Greenwald's tweet) -- that's such a well-known hip-hop slang term for $100 bills (or large sums of money in general) that even *my* white self has known about it for years.
Perhaps find someone arguing that and ask them?
Yeah that's totally what the current argument is all about:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... i-semitism
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 14 Feb 2019, 07:09

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:18
Jennifer wrote:
13 Feb 2019, 19:15
I don't see what's anti-Semitic about "It's all about the benjamins, baby" (specifically in response to Greenwald's tweet) -- that's such a well-known hip-hop slang term for $100 bills (or large sums of money in general) that even *my* white self has known about it for years.
Perhaps find someone arguing that and ask them?
So why don't you tell us, since you're the one that said her tweets are blowing anti-Semetic dog whistles.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by nicole » 14 Feb 2019, 08:15

Very few people are making anything of the “Benjamins” part of this as a dog whistle. The bigger issue is that she’s saying “it’s all about the money.”

It’s obviously not necessarily anti-Semitic, but it was tweeted by someone with a history of less ambiguously anti-Semitic comments and whatever history inspired having an in-person intervention from her state-level colleagues several years ago.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 14 Feb 2019, 10:40

I have no interested in defending Ilhan Omar's character, so to the extent that her character provides context for her Tweets I don't want to defend the specifics of her Tweets either.

But I think it's pretty clear that the Israeli government, for a number of reasons, currently enjoys the sort of broad Congressional support that few other entities could lay claim to. And well-funded lobbying efforts are definitely part of that. The Israeli government enjoys more support from the US Congress than it enjoys from the Israeli public, frankly.

This is one of those things that's almost impossible to point out in public without accusations of bigotry, so the only people who will say it are those who are comfortable going radical.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Painboy » 14 Feb 2019, 14:04

A lot of this might have been avoided had she actually made a direct statement about the power of the Israeli lobby instead of trying to use a cutesy turn of phrase. But it seems everyone now feels the need to sound clever.

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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 14 Feb 2019, 14:21

I'm sure that if she'd addressed this manner in a more sober manner then she would have received just as measured of a response as Mearsheimer and Walt received when they published a book on the power of the Israel lobby.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Feb 2019, 18:35

Mo wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 07:09
So why don't you tell us, since you're the one that said her tweets are blowing anti-Semetic dog whistles.
Pretending not to see it in the course of multiple tweets doesn't actually fly. Pointing at one particular tweet and going, "Whahhhhhhh, it's just a P. Diddy reference???" doesn't make it fly.
thoreau wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 10:40
This is one of those things that's almost impossible to point out in public without accusations of bigotry, so the only people who will say it are those who are comfortable going radical.
Except, of course, light-of-Allah-girl already went my bad about the anti-semitic angle, so she doesn't seem that comfortable on being called out.

And yes, anyone who tries to call out israel gets accused of anti-semitism. Since when has that excused anti-semitism in the course of calling out Israel, so as to make it easier? Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 14 Feb 2019, 18:53

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 18:35
Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
No.

I don't want people who dislike Israeli policy to go all-in on racism, I want space for reasonable critics to be able to say reasonable things (including criticisms of a lobbying group, not to be confused with an entire ethnic group) without immediately being bombarded with racism charges. Otherwise the topic will be conceded to the fringe.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 14 Feb 2019, 19:03

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 18:35
Mo wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 07:09
So why don't you tell us, since you're the one that said her tweets are blowing anti-Semetic dog whistles.
Pretending not to see it in the course of multiple tweets doesn't actually fly. Pointing at one particular tweet and going, "Whahhhhhhh, it's just a P. Diddy reference???" doesn't make it fly.
thoreau wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 10:40
This is one of those things that's almost impossible to point out in public without accusations of bigotry, so the only people who will say it are those who are comfortable going radical.
Except, of course, light-of-Allah-girl already went my bad about the anti-semitic angle, so she doesn't seem that comfortable on being called out.

And yes, anyone who tries to call out israel gets accused of anti-semitism. Since when has that excused anti-semitism in the course of calling out Israel, so as to make it easier?
I wasn't aware of her prior tweets when I posted my comment upthread. There's no excuse for anti-semitic dog-whistles.
Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
The problem I have is that 'one shitty PAC' and 'one small country' have a hugely disproportionate influence on US politics and foreign policy. Very few pols have the guts to tell said PAC or country to take a hike. (And, if they do, they run the risk of not merely being accused of anti-semitism, but mercilessly mobbed until they repent.)
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Feb 2019, 19:04

thoreau wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 18:53
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 18:35
Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
No.

I don't want people who dislike Israeli policy to go all-in on racism, I want space for reasonable critics to be able to say reasonable things (including criticisms of a lobbying group, not to be confused with an entire ethnic group) without immediately being bombarded with racism charges. Otherwise the topic will be conceded to the fringe.
It helps to clearly present one's criticisms as being of a lobbying group and not a winking swipe at an ethnic group. When I watch Blues who have no problems at all about criticizing Israel cringe about her tweets and describe them as anti-semitic and an own-goal (and get resentful towards Reds for pretending to care about racism by jumping in on this), I'm pretty sure it's not in my head.

Yes, yes—it's a PITA to get flak for an opinion, even if that's the job you ran for. But giving a shrugging pass to her on the grounds of I'm not gonna defend her, but I'm sure she'd get grief no matter how she presented it? That is conceding the issue to the fringe.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Feb 2019, 19:07

Aresen wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 19:03
Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
The problem I have is that 'one shitty PAC' and 'one small country' have a hugely disproportionate influence on US politics and foreign policy. Very few pols have the guts to tell said PAC or country to take a hike. (And, if they do, they run the risk of not merely being accused of anti-semitism, but mercilessly mobbed until they repent.)
So...is your anwer, "Yes, because it's so hard to be a politician", then? I mean, every damn issue is super-unique. Does that justify giving a pass to that?
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 14 Feb 2019, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jennifer » 14 Feb 2019, 19:09

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 18:35
And yes, anyone who tries to call out israel gets accused of anti-semitism. Since when has that excused anti-semitism in the course of calling out Israel, so as to make it easier? Do you really support the old dipshit conservative, "If they call me racist no matter what, I'm just gonna be racist, then!" approach to dealing with one shitty PAC and one small country?
Except -- I'm basing this on what the BBC story says, since I don't actually follow her on Twitter -- there wasn't anything anti-Semitic in the specific tweets. Quoth the BBC:
What was the controversy? In response to a tweet on Sunday from a journalist questioning why US political leaders always defend Israel, Ms Omar used a slang term for $100 bills, writing: "it's all about the Benjamins baby." When challenged where she thought such money was coming from, the 36-year-old Somali-American tweeted back: "Aipac."
The BBC also said this:
New Democratic congresswoman Ilhan Omar has apologised for tweets implying US lawmakers only support Israel because of lobby money.

She faced widespread condemnation for suggesting the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (Aipac) was buying influence for pro-Israel policies.

Republicans and Democrats alike said the tweets stoked anti-Semitic tropes about Jews and money.
Criticizing "money in politics" and "lobbyists' money in politics" is bog-standard on both sides of the American political aisle, and doesn't suddenly become anti-Semitic just because the lobbyist money in question comes from Israel.

EDIT: I just-now saw this post from you: "It helps to clearly present one's criticisms as being of a lobbying group and not a winking swipe at an ethnic group." Well, that's exactly what she did -- she did not criticize "Jews"; she criticized "AIPAC."
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by nicole » 14 Feb 2019, 19:12

It’s not exactly what she did. It’s how she clarified what she did.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 14 Feb 2019, 19:12

No, it's that I deplore the outsized influence of one particular lobby and one small country that can 'wag the dog' on the US. The Jordan River and Dead Sea are not the US border.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Feb 2019, 19:15

Jennifer wrote:
14 Feb 2019, 19:09
Criticizing "money in politics" and "lobbyists' money in politics" is bog-standard on both sides of the American political aisle, and doesn't suddenly become anti-Semitic just because the lobbyist money in question comes from Israel.

EDIT: I just-now saw this post from you: "It helps to clearly present one's criticisms as being of a lobbying group and not a winking swipe at an ethnic group." Well, that's exactly what she did -- she did not criticize "Jews"; she criticized "AIPAC."
"What's the big deal about saying black people love fried chicken and watermelon?"

It's a matter of context and presentation. And yes, it's terribly unfair that someone who's made anti-semitic remarks before doesn't get a huge benefit of the doubt when she tries to be clever. LIfe works that way.
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