Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 14:26

The message I got my whole life is “you pay your way in the world better figure out how”.

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nicole
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 14:40

JasonL wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 14:20
I can’t digest the willful blindness into college years. You can’t know anything about the world at all and think someone can promise you great outcomes really really.

I can only make sense of it as some kind of thing like The Secret where you choose to replace what you know with wishes and fairy dust because what you know isn’t fun. In which case- fuck you, you big baby.
But...the question is about them not being blind anymore. They're saying, "you lied to us." You're saying you don't understand how they believe the lies. The point is they no longer believe the lies.
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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 14:59

But ... come on, yeah they don't believe and they are 30 now. Do they still hold Santa Claus against their parents, or is there some thing that's like "oh yeah life can't possibly work that way" they should have worked through in their teens? This idea that unlike any previous generation this type of parenting imprinted directly on the souls of avotoastians such that there was no reason to question ... come on.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 15:04

I don’t know why you’re going back to “no reason to question” when you just said it’s not about that but about getting over being wronged.

I don’t believe in forgiving one’s parents, of course, but if normal psychological development is the willingness to inflict the same set of injustices on another generation, millennials seem to be doing just fine.
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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 15:47

You and I see this differently for a lot of reasons but one of them is kinda like - a 10 year old may have a set of expectations about the world that is wholly unreasonable - almost certainly does have those expectations. You don't give a 10 year old whatever they want nor subject them to the state of nature outcomes they might otherwise experience because they are limited, they are maybe not even evaluatable as stupid - they are undeveloped. The tradeoff is mommy takes care of things but subjects you to rules and constraints in the process. Then, over time, development occurs, both because the inputs from mommy change and because the set of experiences you have interacts with your brainstuffs in such a way that you can hold more complex truths, project to a future state, evaluate probable outcomes etc. At some point in there, no magic age, you are reasonably adult like in your capacity to digest.

Where this narrative drives me crazy is it acts as though the inputs of mommy are the only thing happening. The emergent moral agent is not responsible for anything so long as mommy says everything will be okay. All manner of evidence to the contrary is being processed - history classes, predator prey models, entropy, scarcity, poverty, life in other countries, etc. So, yeah, is there variance in how long mommy is telling you a feel good story and can that be harmful in the near term, sure Ill accept that. But all that other stuff is still happening and you have to be choosing to ignore it. If you do russian literature and never once google "job prospects russian literature" that's on you kid.

There is an inconsistency in a desire to see young children as competent moral agents but then failing to hold them accountable even at much later ages for evaluating literally anything.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 11 Feb 2019, 16:48

JasonL wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 14:59
Do they still hold Santa Claus against their parents,
If their belief in Santa Claus led them, when they were too young to really understand what they were doing, to go over their heads in bankruptcy-proof debt for reasons which, they were told, would lead to better life outcomes but actually made them worse off, and furthermore it wasn't just their parents telling them "Go into debt to make Santa happy" but also their teachers and counselors and government and etc. etc. -- in that case, I wouldn't blame them one bit for still holding a Santa-shaped grudge.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 16:59

Well, I didn't think merely the question "were millennials lied to about hard work leading to success" brought Russian literature into it. I mean, I'm not not-successful, but that doesn't mean I don't think I was lied to generally about the risks vs. rewards of life and hard work, value of college, etc. It's not like this stuff only applies if you're a barista with a BA or whatever. I think my parents were like, unbelievably, pathetically naive in their decision to have kids. Things like my dad always saying how much he hates work and working sucks, but...I mean, I was going to have to work. Did he think I wouldn't? No, he just thought I like, wouldn't mind it or something. Or, he lied to both of us about how hard I would have to work, and how worth the rewards it would be.

Every generation sells the next one a bill of goods because otherwise we'd have mass parricide.
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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 17:57

It is not the general case I suspect that parents who say they hate work have no other joys that compensate. The parental vibe is something like they can’t know how you’ll evaluate your joys and miseries really but lots and lots of people find that there are decent trade offs between miseries of work and what that can provide in the way of choices for positive experiences.


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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Eric the .5b » 11 Feb 2019, 18:19

So this is where the, "OMG, the capitalist system is evil because it, like, demands I expend effort in order to survive." business comes from—people unwilling to go so far as yammer about "mass parricide".
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by dhex » 11 Feb 2019, 20:14

"I expected a single sentence to cover all possible outcomes and destinies"

To be fair one of my earliest memories is my father showing me his wallet and being told "the amount of money you have in there is directly proportional to the amount of freedom you have in America." I was probably 5-6 years old.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by thoreau » 11 Feb 2019, 20:21

Obviously he should have told you that the amount of freedom you have in America is why you have no excuse for not having a full wallet. Anything else is a failure to teach responsibility.

That or he shouldn't have had you because having kids is wrong.

Geez this thread is fucked.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Eric the .5b » 11 Feb 2019, 20:42

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by dhex » 11 Feb 2019, 21:37

thoreau wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 20:21
Obviously he should have told you that the amount of freedom you have in America is why you have no excuse for not having a full wallet. Anything else is a failure to teach responsibility.

That or he shouldn't have had you because having kids is wrong.

Geez this thread is fucked.
Thoreau the moral of that story is my dad is crazy bad with small children
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Hugh Akston » 28 Feb 2019, 21:37

"Throwing all my money into a pit and then jumping in after it didn't work out nearly as well as I had hoped"
Nearly half of all homeowners have buyer’s remorse, according to a new survey from Bankrate. While 44% of all homeowners have regrets, that number swells to 63% for millennial homeowners. It’s the highest proportion of any generation, and nearly double that of baby boomers – 35% of those aged 55-73 regret buying a home.
Homeowners identify the costs of owning a home as the primary source of their buyer’s remorse. Nearly 20% of homeowners said that unexpected maintenance and other hidden costs were their largest pain point. That number jumps to 25% among millennials.
But unexpected costs aren’t the only reasons for regret. Homeowners also say that bad location, high mortgage payments, and buying the wrong size home can cause them to think differently about their purchase.
A whopping 79% of Americans still think that owning a home is the trademark of the American dream. That’s ahead of retirement, having a successful career, and owning a car.

Though a majority of Americans want to buy, more than half say they don’t have enough income to buy a home. Nearly half — 41% — say they can’t afford a down payment or closing costs. Other reasons include bad credit, and too much debt.
Personally I have a great deal of confidence in a civilization that places such a high value on something that a significant plurality of people can never accomplish and a significant plurality of those who do end up regretting.
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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 28 Feb 2019, 22:26

There are homes that are not destructively priced in areas that are not destructive at low wages, but you can’t fucking convince people to do that.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Hugh Akston » 06 Mar 2019, 00:53

NYT wrote:More than half (53 percent) of Americans ages 21 to 37 have received some form of financial assistance from a parent, guardian or family member since turning 21, according to a 2018 report by Country Financial, a financial services firm in Bloomington, Ill. This may include paying bills for a cellphone (41 percent), groceries and gas (32 percent), rent (40 percent) or health insurance (32 percent).
Kimberly Palmer, a personal finance expert for NerdWallet, a consumer finance company and app based in San Francisco, said, “A lot of 30-somethings are still getting financial help from their parents, if they are lucky enough to take advantage of it. Incomes today are lower than they were for Gen Xers and boomers at the same point in their lives. Plus, many of the millennials graduated into the recession, and when you hit your 30s, there are a lot of lifestyle changes and expenses, like having kids, getting married and buying a house.”
On average, each millennial parent receives $11,011 per year in combined financial support and unpaid labor, the 2017 TD Ameritrade Millennial Parents Survey found, for an annual total of $253 billion in America.
That assistance is crucial for many, according to the study. A quarter of millennial parents receive hourly support from their parents, in the form of child care or household help, and 18 percent of those receiving financial support say they couldn’t afford their current lifestyle without it. Over half of these millennial parents (remember that more than a million are becoming mothers every year) say they have a generalized anxiety about not earning enough to support themselves and their families.
Then there are the free services. Ms. Palmer, who is 39 and lives near Washington, D.C., said that the free 20 to 25 hours of child care she receives every month from her parents contributed to her family’s decision to have a third child (Dylan Palmer Davé arrived on Feb. 9). If she were to pay a babysitter, Ms. Palmer estimates it would add up to around $6,000 a year.
Maybe you should have thought a little more about it.
In cities like New York, where private preschool can cost over $30,000 a year, families need special help footing the bill. “Education is incredibly expensive and keeps going up, but grandparents feel very strongly about their grandchildren having a good education,” said Dana Haddad, who runs New York Admissions, an education consultancy that works with children starting at 10 months.
This, for example, is an excellent reason to never have kids.
Those who do receive parental assistance often do not fit neatly into the stereotype of lazy, entitled millennial. Susan Alvarez, 32, makes over $75,000 as the associate executive director at the Y.M.C.A. of San Diego County. “That is a really decent salary, but it’s still not enough to cover a condo,” she said.

So last year Ms. Alvarez’s parents surprised her with a $50,000 cash gift to help with a down payment on a $435,000 condo three blocks from the beach in San Diego. “I grew up middle-class, and my parents immigrated from Cuba,” she said. “They saw that I’ve worked hard but also that I had the bad luck to graduate into the 2008 recession. I didn’t get a job that paid well enough and had benefits until I was 23, which meant I missed out on almost two years of earning.”
Two years, my stars. How will she ever recover?
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 06 Mar 2019, 05:00

Antinatalism may be overdetermined but I see that as more a reason not to imprison your kids.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 06 Mar 2019, 06:40

The lack of shame about it is something I can’t bend my brain around. I get leaning on parents if you are in legitimate bad shape, lost a job, medical bills whatever. To structure your life around the assumption of ongoing support so you can stay near the beach or have another kid? FFS grow up.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 06 Mar 2019, 07:00

I mean basically no one thinks they need to be 100% responsible for their own kids that way. It seems like alllllllll the policy shit I read these days is about ways to get other people to help take care of your kids. All the Lyman Stone type stuff. How do we make sure extended families can stay together and help each other, because families are totally not the foundational institution of oppression or something.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by dhex » 06 Mar 2019, 08:44

to be fair, any nytimes article about culture is always going to be the same kind of ridiculous anecdata sandwiches. why they want to mar real trends and data with "lady ducksworth's tribulations of a barely 175k hhi in a major metro area" faux tragedies...mang i dunno
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Mo » 06 Mar 2019, 09:05

dhex wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 08:44
to be fair, any nytimes article about culture is always going to be the same kind of ridiculous anecdata sandwiches. why they want to mar real trends and data with "lady ducksworth's tribulations of a barely 175k hhi in a major metro area" faux tragedies...mang i dunno
This. NYTimes Style section is better known as the "First against the wall," section.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Andrew » 06 Mar 2019, 09:12

I'm pretty sure the extended family providing childcare isn't something the millenials are the first to do.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Aresen » 06 Mar 2019, 09:59

Andrew wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 09:12
I'm pretty sure the extended family providing childcare isn't something the millenials are the first to do.
Agreed. My parents gave me $4k when I was in my 30s to help me buy my first house.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Ellie » 06 Mar 2019, 11:07

Andrew wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 09:12
I'm pretty sure the extended family providing childcare isn't something the millenials are the first to do.
Right?
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JD » 06 Mar 2019, 11:16

nicole wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 07:00
I mean basically no one thinks they need to be 100% responsible for their own kids that way. It seems like alllllllll the policy shit I read these days is about ways to get other people to help take care of your kids. All the Lyman Stone type stuff. How do we make sure extended families can stay together and help each other, because families are totally not the foundational institution of oppression or something.
On a related note, I'm puzzled by the way a lot of leftists seem to swing between "It takes a village, yay!" and WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M ACTUALLY EXPECTED TO HELP SHELL OUT FOR MY PARENTS' ELDERCARE? I'm coming to the conclusion that what they actually mean is "I never want to have to think about anything".
"Millennials are lazy. They'd rather have avocado toast than cave in a man's skull with a tire iron!" -FFF

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