Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Discuss H&R posts and other Reason articles here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Warren
Posts: 27012
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Warren » 24 Nov 2018, 11:02

Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

I really enjoyed this. It distills a long history I've been actively following/advocating.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24708
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Mo » 24 Nov 2018, 12:03

It seems weird to me to call gay marriage a libertarian policy win. If my memory serves me, I don’t recall much, if any, energy for SSM coming from libertarians and it primarily being pushed by the left. While not a split akin to abortion, it seems that because a lot of libertarians were culturally right, a lot of the avoidance of talking about SSM was justified by saying “the state shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all” and promptly ignoring the issue.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 27012
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Warren » 24 Nov 2018, 12:14

Mo wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 12:03
It seems weird to me to call gay marriage a libertarian policy win. If my memory serves me, I don’t recall much, if any, energy for SSM coming from libertarians and it primarily being pushed by the left. While not a split akin to abortion, it seems that because a lot of libertarians were culturally right, a lot of the avoidance of talking about SSM was justified by saying “the state shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all” and promptly ignoring the issue.
Check. Granting the same legal status to gay and straight marriage has been long standing libertarian consensus. The libertarian opposition to gay marriage was an opposition to state involvement in marriage period. Even so, extending equal protection under the law to homosexuals has been fundamental libertarian policy.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Highway
Posts: 13304
Joined: 12 May 2011, 00:22
Location: the Electric Ocean

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Highway » 24 Nov 2018, 13:03

There was some libertarian push for SSM, and a not-insignificant amount of it was actively rebuffed by gay rights activists, due to their own purity tests in that the libertarian groups were not "liberal" enough in their other views to make common cause with for that one policy, or were loathe to let a libertarian group share in the credit.
"Sharks do not go around challenging people to games of chance like dojo breakers."

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18068
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Hugh Akston » 24 Nov 2018, 14:20

Gillespie and Welch like to point out that people were advocating for gay marriage in the pages of reason back in the 70s before it was cool.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24708
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Mo » 24 Nov 2018, 14:36

I’m not saying that there weren’t libertarians pushing for SSM. But the activist and even elite energy from libertarians on SSM was orders of magnitude less than for things like pot legalization or job licensing reform.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24377
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Jennifer » 24 Nov 2018, 14:46

I don't doubt that some libertarians were pushing for SSM as early as the 70s. but most of what I saw on the matter was of the "get the state out of marriage altogether" argument, which for the majority of people was merely a cop out thinly hiding the fact that those individuals were themselves opposed to SSM (especially given how many of those "get the state out of marriage" types were themselves married to an opposite-sex partner in the eyes of the state).
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28328
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by thoreau » 24 Nov 2018, 15:21

Jennifer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 14:46
I don't doubt that some libertarians were pushing for SSM as early as the 70s. but most of what I saw on the matter was of the "get the state out of marriage altogether" argument, which for the majority of people was merely a cop out thinly hiding the fact that those individuals were themselves opposed to SSM (especially given how many of those "get the state out of marriage" types were themselves married to an opposite-sex partner in the eyes of the state).
This.

There was no great libertarian outcry for abolition of state-sanctioned marriage. Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot. A great many of them did everything in their power to look, sound, and act like mere Republicans who smoke pot (not that drug liberalization was a high priority for some of them either).



*Maybe they weren't True Scotsman Libertarians, but they used the label, agreed with a non-trivial fraction of the stances, and hung out in libertarian circles.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18068
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Hugh Akston » 24 Nov 2018, 15:45

thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28328
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by thoreau » 24 Nov 2018, 16:51

Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 27012
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Warren » 24 Nov 2018, 16:58

thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:51
Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."
It may be True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't consider the H&R Commentariot part of the libertarian community.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16006
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Aresen » 24 Nov 2018, 17:09

Warren wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:58
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:51
Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."
It may be True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't consider the H&R Commentariot part of the libertarian community.
I sympathize with your viewpoint, but I will not insist on a Libertarian Purity Test® for those who wish to call themselves libertarian. OTOH, I will agree that a certain miletery loyer has self-identified as NOT being a libertarian.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 17433
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Nov 2018, 17:49

Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24708
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Mo » 24 Nov 2018, 18:18

After giving some thought, I think I got an idea of where my mind was. For the past couple decades, libertarians weren’t part of the conversation about advancing the ball or had their own independent vision (aside from destroy all marriage). It was much more about not opposing efforts or hitching on to existing drives by liberal groups. This is in sharp contrast to things like legalization, criminal justice reform, eminent domain or free speech. Where there is a strong, independent libertarian POV that is being pressed by libertarian activists. My point was there’s a difference between hopping along for the ride and pushing your vision.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18068
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Hugh Akston » 24 Nov 2018, 20:39

lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 17:49
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.
This is correct. It's not wrong to say that government shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses in the first place, even if the people saying it at the time were transparently doing so for the most stupendously wrong reason.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 17433
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Nov 2018, 20:49

IIRC, the LP officially had gay marriage as part of its platform in 1971 or 72, though.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24377
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Jennifer » 24 Nov 2018, 20:50

Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 20:39
lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 17:49
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.
This is correct. It's not wrong to say that government shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses in the first place,
But I'd argue it was wrong to say that as a means of dismissing a still-current injustice: "Oh, gay couples can't get married? Yeah, well, government shouldn't be in the marriage biz anyway. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to cut this debate short so my spouse and I can go have our anniversary dinner."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13686
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Eric the .5b » 24 Nov 2018, 20:52

Up until the mid-aughts, the only Americans I saw or interacted with who wanted gay people to have legally recognized marriage who weren't themselves gay were libertarians and a few people well left of Blue center. Everyone else, including everyone else in Team Blue, was quite comfortable being loudly and firmly against it for reasons that boiled down to "because Jesus*" and offering things-not-called-marriage to try to deflect the demand for equality. But by the late aughts, the mood started to change quickly.

Hell, a former Grylliader was one of the people working on the gay marriage effort in New Hampshire.




* Really, because Paul.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13686
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Eric the .5b » 24 Nov 2018, 20:58

The article is amusing, though, given that big lecture from back in the late-aughts and into the tens from then-reason writers about how ethical and moral arguments were totally the wrong tack and that wonky consequentialist arguments were the only acceptable ways to push libertarianism or even to argue for it among ourselves.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18068
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Hugh Akston » 24 Nov 2018, 21:22

lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 20:49
IIRC, the LP officially had gay marriage as part of its platform in 1971 or 72, though.
If you squint hard you can see support for gay rights in '72 (the first national platform).
They opposed discrimination based on sexual preference in '76.
The word 'marriage' doesn't appear until 1982.
'96 is the first time that you can reasonably read opposition to DOMA-style legislation.
2008 is the first time that 'sexual orientation' and 'marriage' appear in the same paragraph. Team Blue was opposed to DOMA that same year, but didn't get on the gay marriage train until '012.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
Jake
Posts: 2766
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:38

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Jake » 24 Nov 2018, 22:33

I remember the old H&R arguments about it.

The correct position (in my not-so-humble opinion) always was: Yes, government should be out of the marriage business. But as long as that's not the case, gay couples should have just as much right to marriage as straight couples.

John and a legion of trolls and/or sock puppets disagreed, and desperately tried to keep the focus only on the first part, while refusing to engage with the second. Their arguments were, unsurprisingly, hollow and disingenuous.
"Facebook is like a locker room with all the players screaming at each other how much they have to win and then forgetting they have to take the field and actually play the gawddamn game." -- D.A. Ridgely

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24708
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Post by Mo » 25 Nov 2018, 07:09

TNR published Sullivan’s case for gay marriage as a cover piece back in 1989.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests