Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

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Jadagul
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jadagul » 08 May 2018, 08:52

dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 07:37
Mo wrote:
07 May 2018, 23:54
I think I'm the only person that liked the casino scene. Sure it didn't advance the plot once, but at least it was a bit of trope inversion to have the unlikely and wild plan that is played out for way to long actually not work.
The result was good because more genre franchise films need to crush dreams to encourage mental flexibility and prevent the loss of tolerance for ambiguity that comes from having no consequences and endless reboots.

But the actual sequence reminded me of the first prequel which was not a good look. Baz lurhman-wars.

Del Toro the nihilist space cowboy was good tho.
The problem with del Toro is that the stuff he was saying didn't make any sense.

I don't necessarily object to the plan failing---if nothing else, the occasional film should do that so you can't just assume that every plan is going to work. I object to almost literally everything else about that sequence.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Mo » 08 May 2018, 09:51

Also, isn't the canon that Incom Corporation split from supplying what became the Empire to exclusively provide weaponry to the Rebellion. And since Ties are made by Seinar, it would be odd to have a single arms dealer selling both. It would be like a someone selling both F-35s and F/A-18s. You might get that from the black market separatist groups, but there are essentially two great powers that are dealing directly with OEMs.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 08 May 2018, 11:19

Mo wrote:
08 May 2018, 09:51
Also, isn't the canon that Incom Corporation split from supplying what became the Empire to exclusively provide weaponry to the Rebellion. And since Ties are made by Seinar, it would be odd to have a single arms dealer selling both. It would be like a someone selling both F-35s and F/A-18s. You might get that from the black market separatist groups, but there are essentially two great powers that are dealing directly with OEMs.
No, Incom was nationalized due to rebel sympathies by the Empire and their leadership and engineers defected to the Alliance and brought schematics and prototypes of the X-wing with them. Incom didn't do much after that. Other than those prototypes, all the X-wings used during the Rebellion era were manufactured either by sympathizers within planetary leadership of places that rebelled, or by black market arms dealers for the Alliance. So it actually makes some degree of sense that X-wings would be available on the black market, being that the earlier models especially are essentially abandoned patents by that point. It's more like someone selling both AK-47s and M16s.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dead_elvis » 08 May 2018, 12:16

Jasper wrote:
07 May 2018, 12:22
Finally watched The Last Jedi over the weekend.

Kinda wish I hadn't.
Happened to us last night. It was bound to happen at some point.

Good lord, I have a hard time believing that throwing a dart at a random assortment of fanfiction and using that for the script wouldn't have had a better result.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 08 May 2018, 21:30

Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2018, 08:52
dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 07:37
Mo wrote:
07 May 2018, 23:54
I think I'm the only person that liked the casino scene. Sure it didn't advance the plot once, but at least it was a bit of trope inversion to have the unlikely and wild plan that is played out for way to long actually not work.
The result was good because more genre franchise films need to crush dreams to encourage mental flexibility and prevent the loss of tolerance for ambiguity that comes from having no consequences and endless reboots.

But the actual sequence reminded me of the first prequel which was not a good look. Baz lurhman-wars.

Del Toro the nihilist space cowboy was good tho.
The problem with del Toro is that the stuff he was saying didn't make any sense.

I don't necessarily object to the plan failing---if nothing else, the occasional film should do that so you can't just assume that every plan is going to work. I object to almost literally everything else about that sequence.
How so? I mean he's all like fuck the world I get paid. That's eminently sensible.

What really doesn't make sense is why everyone uses physical currency. Wtf. We have apps for that now and so far don't have space wizards.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 May 2018, 21:44

dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 07:37

What really doesn't make sense is why everyone uses physical currency. Wtf. We have apps for that now and so far don't have space wizards.
This is a weird thing to believe. Tens of thousands to millions of inhabited planets. Keeping everyone on an electronic ledger would be complicated.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 08 May 2018, 22:08

less weird than some kind of centralized banking system or network of systems where physical currencies can be used? i mean, sure, maybe he's bartering for space spice or whatever the fuck it is works as contraband/exchangeable currency for dirtbags - but we're also talking a world with space wizards. a network of jedi paypal nodes is at least as reasonable, and a lot easier to carry.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jadagul » 08 May 2018, 22:12

dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 21:30
Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2018, 08:52
dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 07:37
Mo wrote:
07 May 2018, 23:54
I think I'm the only person that liked the casino scene. Sure it didn't advance the plot once, but at least it was a bit of trope inversion to have the unlikely and wild plan that is played out for way to long actually not work.
The result was good because more genre franchise films need to crush dreams to encourage mental flexibility and prevent the loss of tolerance for ambiguity that comes from having no consequences and endless reboots.

But the actual sequence reminded me of the first prequel which was not a good look. Baz lurhman-wars.

Del Toro the nihilist space cowboy was good tho.
The problem with del Toro is that the stuff he was saying didn't make any sense.

I don't necessarily object to the plan failing---if nothing else, the occasional film should do that so you can't just assume that every plan is going to work. I object to almost literally everything else about that sequence.
How so? I mean he's all like fuck the world I get paid. That's eminently sensible.

What really doesn't make sense is why everyone uses physical currency. Wtf. We have apps for that now and so far don't have space wizards.
Oh, sure, the nihilism is fine. I don't endorse it personally but that's not the problem.

The problem is the argument: "Okay, these people sell weapons to the First Order, so that makes them bad. So people who are dealing with them are bad people. But they also sell weapons to the Resistance. That means the Resistance is dealing with them, and thus they're also bad people."

The movie can't make up its mind whether the First Order is bad and so that speaks ill of the weapons dealers, or whether the weapons dealers are bad and so that speaks ill of anyone who buys from them. It's pretty confused in a way that I can totally imagine Rose being confused but (1) I don't think del Toro would be confused in the same way, and (2) I think it reflects the same confusion from the filmmakers.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by lunchstealer » 08 May 2018, 22:19

dead_elvis wrote:
08 May 2018, 12:16
Jasper wrote:
07 May 2018, 12:22
Finally watched The Last Jedi over the weekend.

Kinda wish I hadn't.
Happened to us last night. It was bound to happen at some point.

Good lord, I have a hard time believing that throwing a dart at a random assortment of fanfiction and using that for the script wouldn't have had a better result.
Do that with Twilight and you get Fifty Shades of Gray, so....
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 May 2018, 22:30

dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 22:08
less weird than some kind of centralized banking system or network of systems where physical currencies can be used? i mean, sure, maybe he's bartering for space spice or whatever the fuck it is works as contraband/exchangeable currency for dirtbags - but we're also talking a world with space wizards. a network of jedi paypal nodes is at least as reasonable, and a lot easier to carry.
The crappy communications system they have across the galaxy indicates that transmitting data is not so easy across interstellar space. We've had coins since the first millennium BC at least. They could work in space.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 May 2018, 22:34

Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2018, 22:12
dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 21:30
Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2018, 08:52
dhex wrote:
08 May 2018, 07:37
Mo wrote:
07 May 2018, 23:54
I think I'm the only person that liked the casino scene. Sure it didn't advance the plot once, but at least it was a bit of trope inversion to have the unlikely and wild plan that is played out for way to long actually not work.
The result was good because more genre franchise films need to crush dreams to encourage mental flexibility and prevent the loss of tolerance for ambiguity that comes from having no consequences and endless reboots.

But the actual sequence reminded me of the first prequel which was not a good look. Baz lurhman-wars.

Del Toro the nihilist space cowboy was good tho.
The problem with del Toro is that the stuff he was saying didn't make any sense.

I don't necessarily object to the plan failing---if nothing else, the occasional film should do that so you can't just assume that every plan is going to work. I object to almost literally everything else about that sequence.
How so? I mean he's all like fuck the world I get paid. That's eminently sensible.

What really doesn't make sense is why everyone uses physical currency. Wtf. We have apps for that now and so far don't have space wizards.
Oh, sure, the nihilism is fine. I don't endorse it personally but that's not the problem.

The problem is the argument: "Okay, these people sell weapons to the First Order, so that makes them bad. So people who are dealing with them are bad people. But they also sell weapons to the Resistance. That means the Resistance is dealing with them, and thus they're also bad people."

The movie can't make up its mind whether the First Order is bad and so that speaks ill of the weapons dealers, or whether the weapons dealers are bad and so that speaks ill of anyone who buys from them. It's pretty confused in a way that I can totally imagine Rose being confused but (1) I don't think del Toro would be confused in the same way, and (2) I think it reflects the same confusion from the filmmakers.
I took the criticism of the Resistance to be that they also killed a bunch of people. Cf. The Western Allies were infinitely better than the Nazis, but that in no way excuses the bombing campaign against Germany.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Kolohe » 08 May 2018, 23:22

Han Solo got physical loot from the Rebel Alliance for the liberation of Princess Lhaveia from Imperial imprisonment.

By the time of the events of the Last Jedi, half the civilized galaxy had just been blown up in a multiplanet 9/11 Alderaan. Which, at least, should have disrupted the financial system. (plus they're only 30 years past a brutal regime changing civil war, and more or less in the middle of another one. Normally, not good things for financial stability)
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 09 May 2018, 04:42

It's a visual device to say "look that's a lot of money".

Still dumb. You can fly in a ship and magic your ass to wherever and also space wizards but PayPal is craaaaaaaaaaaaazy.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 09 May 2018, 05:54

And also eat suns to kill entire planets. But no venmo.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jadagul » 09 May 2018, 06:58

I have no trouble believing that the interplanetary communications and networking just aren't that good.

Like, sure, within a planet everything should be credit. But it really doesn't look like the networking between planets is terribly great. And building a network that can do payments consistently is not trivial.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 09 May 2018, 09:01

Still seems less trivial than you know planets that are also space ships.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2018, 10:19

That's no banking app.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jasper » 09 May 2018, 10:53

Man, you guys are a bunch of nerds.

What made my toast land butter-side-down, setting the whole rest of the movie up for angry nit-picking at shoddy writing and plot holes, was space bomber pilot having to climb down into the bomb bay to retrieve a garage bomb door opener, being exposed to the hard vacuum of space with no ill effects, and then dropping bombs onto the Star Destroyer.

Dropping bombs. In space.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jake » 09 May 2018, 11:00

Jasper wrote:
09 May 2018, 10:53
Man, you guys are a bunch of nerds.

What made my toast land butter-side-down, setting the whole rest of the movie up for angry nit-picking at shoddy writing and plot holes, was space bomber pilot having to climb down into the bomb bay to retrieve a garage bomb door opener, being exposed to the hard vacuum of space with no ill effects, and then dropping bombs onto the Star Destroyer.

Dropping bombs. In space.

[combo facepalm & headdesk emoji]
Star Wars has a long tradition of energy shields covering what look like giant holes into space. Note all of the people walking around in various Death Star landing bays as ships fly in and out. The end of the bomber that opens up probably has the same sort of arrangement, I figure, so there wouldn't be any hard vacuum involved.

The "dropping bombs" bit is more difficult to explain away. I posit some sort of "choosy" magnetic bomb technology, but I don't think I've got any canonical support for that.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Kolohe » 09 May 2018, 11:00

The proton torpedoes that destroyed the Death Star at the Battle of Yavin also had parabolic trajectories.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jake » 09 May 2018, 11:04

Kolohe wrote:
09 May 2018, 11:00
The proton torpedoes that destroyed the Death Star at the Battle of Yavin also had parabolic trajectories.
Yes, but the moon-sized Death Star would have been big enough, I imagine, to generate its own gravitational pull.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Kolohe » 09 May 2018, 11:12

Jake wrote:
09 May 2018, 11:04
Kolohe wrote:
09 May 2018, 11:00
The proton torpedoes that destroyed the Death Star at the Battle of Yavin also had parabolic trajectories.
Yes, but the moon-sized Death Star would have been big enough, I imagine, to generate its own gravitational pull.
Between the workspaces, living spaces, trash compactors, the void surrounding the central power reactor, and the random bottomless chasms every 500 feet, there's not a lot of mass to generate that gravity.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jake » 09 May 2018, 11:25

Kolohe wrote:
09 May 2018, 11:12
Between the workspaces, living spaces, trash compactors, the void surrounding the central power reactor, and the random bottomless chasms every 500 feet, there's not a lot of mass to generate that gravity.
The reactor, and the shielding surrounding it, was very massive indeed? I dunno; I don't remember the math to figure out a trajectory in the real world, much less that needed to figure out how a fictional space station of unknown mass would affect the flight of fictional torpedoes of unknown mass and unknown velocity.

I just use headcanon to paper over the problems... and that only just enough for my "willing suspension of disbelief" to take over and allow me to enjoy the story that the wacky physics are there to support.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2018, 12:01

They have space wizards. We're way past physics here.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 09 May 2018, 22:26

dhex wrote:
09 May 2018, 09:01
Still seems less trivial than you know planets that are also space ships.
The only slug crimelord that takes a check in our world is orange and lives on Pennsylvania Avenue. For everyone else, there's hard currency. Why would Star Wars be any different?
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