No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

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the innominate one
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 16 Nov 2017, 13:15

People on Twitter calling for Franken to resign. Seems excessive based on a single known instance for which he's apologized.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by tr0g » 16 Nov 2017, 13:22

the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:15
People on Twitter calling for Franken to resign. Seems excessive based on a single known instance for which he's apologized.
What if we want him to resign just because, well, he's Al Franken?
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 16 Nov 2017, 13:26

Doesn't count for much.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Highway » 16 Nov 2017, 13:26

Yeah, if it turns out to be a single instance, I think resigning is a little much, although I would kind of like people putting the idea out there, especially from the Dem side, rather than the Roy Moore circle-the-wagons crap. Given the way pretty much every one of these initial allegations has been the eroding embankment ahead of the dam breach, I think we gotta wait on Franken to see if more people come out with stories about him.

There are definitely some that seem to be single incidents, tho, like Takei, who I haven't heard of anyone else saying "He did it to me, too." Not that I disbelieve one person, but I think there's a big difference between a single incident, especially 30 years ago, and a recurring pattern of behavior.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 16 Nov 2017, 13:29

I agree with that, but what I've seen in an admittedly small sample is a jump to "he must resign now".
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Mo » 16 Nov 2017, 13:34

I'm pretty sure the dam breaching is exactly why McConnell isn't calling for a resignation and hoping an ethics investigation will allow things to cool off. Because the Franken accusations are closer to the first act of the play than the third act.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 16 Nov 2017, 13:49

Mo wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:34
I'm pretty sure the dam breaching is exactly why McConnell isn't calling for a resignation and hoping an ethics investigation will allow things to cool off. Because the Franken accusations are closer to the first act of the play than the third act.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Warren » 16 Nov 2017, 13:52

tr0g wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:22
the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:15
People on Twitter calling for Franken to resign. Seems excessive based on a single known instance for which he's apologized.
What if we want him to resign just because, well, he's Al Franken?
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by nicole » 16 Nov 2017, 13:53

the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:15
People on Twitter calling for Franken to resign. Seems excessive based on a single known instance for which he's apologized.
He didn't apologize for the worst parts of the allegations, did he? I.e., for bullying her after she rejected him
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Aresen » 16 Nov 2017, 14:07

Was Franken one of the torchbearers in the crowd looking to lynch Moore?

(Not that I don't think Moore should be lynched. I'd just like to see another rope hung on that oak tree.)
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 14:10

By employment category, who do you guys see "winning" the gross olympics?

I'll go 1) hollywood; 2) Politics; 3) media; 4) academia; 5) publishing / fine arts

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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 16 Nov 2017, 14:12

@Nicole: I guess I don't know. You may be right. What was the form of the bullying? If it wasn't physical abuse or ongoing verbal harassment, I'd say no. By the standards some women seem to use, I've been bullied and harassed at work, and there wasn't much concern, possibly because I'm a middle aged straight white guy, or possibly because I didn't insist on playing victim.

I also see a lot of complaints about men interrupting women. People of both sexes interrupt and talk over me. I interrupt my male supervisor frequently, and he me.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Mo » 16 Nov 2017, 14:23

1) Politics; 2) Hollywood; 3) publishing / fine arts; 4) media; 5) academia

If you include state and local politics, just by sheer volume and grossness, politics is going to win in a landslide. If you only include the federal level, then I can go H-Wodd at 1.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by nicole » 16 Nov 2017, 14:24

the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:12
@Nicole: I guess I don't know. You may be right. What was the form of the bullying? If it wasn't physical abuse or ongoing verbal harassment, I'd say no. By the standards some women seem to use, I've been bullied and harassed at work, and there wasn't much concern, possibly because I'm a middle aged straight white guy, or possibly because I didn't insist on playing victim.

I also see a lot of complaints about men interrupting women. People of both sexes interrupt and talk over me. I interrupt my male supervisor frequently, and he me.
I'm referring to her allegations of ongoing "petty insults" throughout the rest of the trip, including him drawing devil horns on a photo she was autographing for the troops. If she's telling the truth, the way he handled the "rejection" is what really bugs me. I mean, not to condone forcible kissing. But I think we underrate how shitty it is to act like this because someone said "no." Grow up and don't take your fucking resentment out on me. People get to say no.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Highway » 16 Nov 2017, 14:26

nicole wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:53
the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 13:15
People on Twitter calling for Franken to resign. Seems excessive based on a single known instance for which he's apologized.
He didn't apologize for the worst parts of the allegations, did he? I.e., for bullying her after she rejected him
The "apology" I read was also pretty self-serving, in a "Well, I don't remember it that way, but if she didn't like it I'm sorry." One can complain about Louie CK's apology not hitting exactly the right things, but it does admit the crux of what he did and seems to realize that that was the wrong thing to do because it was the wrong thing to do, not just because he got called out on it.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Warren » 16 Nov 2017, 14:33

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:10
By employment category, who do you guys see "winning" the gross olympics?

I'll go 1) hollywood; 2) Politics; 3) media; 4) academia; 5) publishing / fine arts
1) Financial Services; 2) Guns 3) Law; 4) Used Cars; 5) Religion
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 14:38

nicole wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:24
Grow up and don't take your fucking resentment out on me. People get to say no.
That might, possibly, be the single most baffling thing about all of this (I mean the wave of sexual assault allegations in general, not Franken or any one other person in particular). I have a vague recollection of a discussion here -- maybe multiple discussions on the same theme -- complaining about the "friend zone" and how annoying it is to be a woman who loses a male friend specifically because you want to be his friend rather than his lover/romantic partner-- but IIRC, at one point the conversation reached a sort of consensus a la "Well, most likely it's mainly an issue for high school or college students, because everyone's still young and inexperienced and hormonal, AND because everyone's thrown together all day in ways which generally don't happen in older adults."

But these last few weeks -- okay, sexual hypocrisy from a sex-hating politico like Moore is to be expected; that does not surprise me anymore than the frequent revelation "Homophobic politico caught in gay tryst." And jokes about the Hollywood "casting couch" are as old as the movie industry itself, so the Weinstein revelations didn't exactly surprise me (though the number of people beyond Weinstein, the sheer ubiquitousness of these complaints, did). But everything together is just -- what the FUCK?? I mean, of course I've encountered men -- as you surely have too -- who will take it as a HUGE personal affront if you dare not reciprocate whatever sexual interest they have in you, or at least give them your attention when they demand it, but after finishing my school days I figured such men were limited to a relatively few random catcall weirdos on the street and misogynistic assholes on the Internet. But instead, it seems like the decent non-predatory men are the relative few. I've lost count of how many iterations I've read of the joke "At this point, it'll be quicker and easier to release the names of politicos, celebrities or business executives who do NOT engage in systematic sexual harassment."

What. The. Fuck? If these allegations about Franken, say, were of something he allegedly did in his teens or 20s, I could maybe shrug and think he'd outgrown it. But he was-- what, in his 50s at the time? WELL past the age of sleazy-teen-sex-comedy behavior.

EDIT: Added a couple of missing words
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by thoreau » 16 Nov 2017, 14:42

Mo wrote:1) Politics; 2) Hollywood; 3) publishing / fine arts; 4) media; 5) academia

If you include state and local politics, just by sheer volume and grossness, politics is going to win in a landslide. If you only include the federal level, then I can go H-Wodd at 1.
I see your point about politics versus Hollywood. As to academia being in fifth place, the price of hubris is steep, so I will predict we are in third place on the theory that the people who say "Nope, not a big problem here, no way" are always proved wrong.

I do think that within academia biomedical research will turn out to be as bad as humanities, or maybe even worse. Physics will probably be worse than I think but better than I fear. Astronomy is probably not very different from physics but their hypocrites are probably way more baroque.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 16 Nov 2017, 14:43

Warren makes a good point. How do you leave out religion?

Highway- maybe, or maybe it truly was meant as a joke gone wrong. He said explicitly he shouldn't have taken the photo with his hands over her breasts. Some things are subjective, however. He shouldn't have done any of it, and if it turns out there's a pattern instead of a one-off lapse in judgement, then he's got to go. Certainly I agree that people get to say no. I've been told no many times. On rare occasion I've even been the one to say no, believe it or not.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 14:53

Religion is fair. That was off top of head kinda thing based on recent stories. I think the idea of a powerful career gatekeeper and the general absence of something like HR which creates institutional barriers (which yes can fail) will be correlated features.

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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Nov 2017, 15:14

the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 11:52
This isn't good, Al.

Senator Al Franken Accused of Groping a Woman in 2006

https://nyti.ms/2jwLCTe
Oh, this will be entertaining.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Mo » 16 Nov 2017, 15:16

Small business (including law firms and doctors' offices) are also likely a shitshow
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 15:24

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:53
Religion is fair. That was off top of head kinda thing based on recent stories. I think the idea of a powerful career gatekeeper and the general absence of something like HR which creates institutional barriers (which yes can fail) will be correlated features.
On further reflection, I daresay that one word I emphasized is all it takes. Because for people like Roy Moore, hitting on teenagers as a DA and allegedly groping a late-20s client about to be divorced, it obviously wasn't a matter of "Moore was the one person who could make or break them in the lottery-odds career path they wish to travel," it was simply "Moore had power, period."

Consider too the even worse instances of police and prison guards raping or otherwise sexually assaulting people in their custody -- they've got power, and so they abuse it.

I'm still baffled by the sheer scale of the allegations, though. A couple individual assholes who have power (or at least high influence) abuse it in some way -- sure, that is human nature. And the idea that certain fields would be more likely to attract people who seek power so they can abuse it is also to be expected -- like, if your fetish is handcuffing and raping women, obviously a cop's job offers far more opportunities than most careers. You wanna blackmail sexy actress wannabes into fucking you, or even get them into a situation where they're alone with you so you can attack them -- being a rich and powerful movie producer is definitely your best option. But the idea that such rot has spread so far in pretty much every major industry... Jeeeesus.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Highway » 16 Nov 2017, 15:25

the innominate one wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:43
Warren makes a good point. How do you leave out religion?

Highway- maybe, or maybe it truly was meant as a joke gone wrong. He said explicitly he shouldn't have taken the photo with his hands over her breasts. Some things are subjective, however. He shouldn't have done any of it, and if it turns out there's a pattern instead of a one-off lapse in judgement, then he's got to go. Certainly I agree that people get to say no. I've been told no many times. On rare occasion I've even been the one to say no, believe it or not.
Reading more about the circumstances and what he did, I'm coming around to the "Franken should resign" position, especially if that's the moral high ground that the Dems want to hold on to. Of course, that could likely open a lot of House and Senate seats. I had misunderstood Franken's offense to have been farther in the past than it was, not that it makes a *lot* of difference.
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Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 15:29

Mo wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:23
1) Politics; 2) Hollywood; 3) publishing / fine arts; 4) media; 5) academia

If you include state and local politics, just by sheer volume and grossness, politics is going to win in a landslide. If you only include the federal level, then I can go H-Wodd at 1.
Since the allegations against Weinstein and Spacey and other Hollywood people came out, there's been a sort of cottage industry of media articles on the theme "Here are the times Seth MacFarlane and/or Family Guy made jokes about those people being predators."

I'm remembering another joke from a Family Guy episode: a beautiful young woman has written a book and wants to get it published, so she goes to Penguin Publishing, where a lecherous penguin says she has to sleep with him if she wants the book published, with something like "If you want to get into black and white, black and white has to get into you!" (Later in that episode they followed up on the joke: someone walked into the penguin publisher's office and found him fucking a naked woman bent over his desk.)

So now I'm wondering if any allegations against Penguin executives are to come out.
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