Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 25 Oct 2017, 12:08

nicole wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:47
thoreau wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:05
nicole wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:44
thoreau wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:42
Scott Alexander pours out 1500 words on "Why are New Atheists disliked by progressives who are OK with other strident social movements?" and somehow never manages to include the words "Islam", "Muslim", or "Elevator."

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/24/ho ... miserably/
I was literally just about to post about this.

But I think the reason he's wrong is actually a shitload of people still believe in god (or similar), even in these educated "Blue" groups.
That's surely part of it. But there's a non-trivial segment of progressives who would (at a minimum) nod respectfully upon hearing arguments like "Whiteness is the problem" or "All men are part of the problem" but would push back if they heard "Religion itself is the problem" or "All believers are part of the problem." Many of these people are white males. Some are religious (usually Christian) and some aren't, but either way they reject New Atheism's broad-brush criticisms of religion while accepting broad-brush critiques of other groups.
Yeah, I just think they're doing that because they still want to think they're going to see their dead grandparents someday. The Muslim stuff is a thing but like barely, compared to the fact that they all think they have souls.
I think it's that New Atheists come across as bigots. Attacking Islam might mean the KSA is bad, but that's like saying child molesters are bad. And they don't come across as attacking the Saudis, they come across as attacking my falafel guy and yelling at women in chadors.

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nicole
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 25 Oct 2017, 12:18

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:08
nicole wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:47
thoreau wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:05
nicole wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:44
thoreau wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:42
Scott Alexander pours out 1500 words on "Why are New Atheists disliked by progressives who are OK with other strident social movements?" and somehow never manages to include the words "Islam", "Muslim", or "Elevator."

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/24/ho ... miserably/
I was literally just about to post about this.

But I think the reason he's wrong is actually a shitload of people still believe in god (or similar), even in these educated "Blue" groups.
That's surely part of it. But there's a non-trivial segment of progressives who would (at a minimum) nod respectfully upon hearing arguments like "Whiteness is the problem" or "All men are part of the problem" but would push back if they heard "Religion itself is the problem" or "All believers are part of the problem." Many of these people are white males. Some are religious (usually Christian) and some aren't, but either way they reject New Atheism's broad-brush criticisms of religion while accepting broad-brush critiques of other groups.
Yeah, I just think they're doing that because they still want to think they're going to see their dead grandparents someday. The Muslim stuff is a thing but like barely, compared to the fact that they all think they have souls.
I think it's that New Atheists come across as bigots. Attacking Islam might mean the KSA is bad, but that's like saying child molesters are bad. And they don't come across as attacking the Saudis, they come across as attacking my falafel guy and yelling at women in chadors.
Right. And the reason people don't think your falafel guy is bad is...they are mostly just like your falafel guy. The NA point is that it's more than molesting children that's bad, and you need to rethink your whole morality because it's based on incorrect metaphysics. That's the part people don't like.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 25 Oct 2017, 12:26

I don't think they actually get that far, mostly they are just bigots and sexists. I am talking about the rank and file, not Sam Harris or whoever. I don't need to waste my time on that stuff. I was already on galaxy brain atheism at that point (now I am on comic brain atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism).

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 25 Oct 2017, 12:29

Several of these arguments are giving the left too much credit. It is superficially true that the left thinks that bigotry is worse that religion, which seems obviously a win for them until you notice that they think everything is bigotry. Saying obvious things with clap hands to make your side cheer? Oh no, not that. Surely the left wouldn't do that.

The answer is there is very little oxygen left after identity politics and that bit goes to redistribution and maybe a few farthings of goodwill for trains. They don't care because religious critique doesn't advance those things in that order.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 25 Oct 2017, 12:33

Yeah, I don't think you actually have met leftists or regular Democrats.

The yelling at women in chadors types are more like volcel evpsych loving versions of catcallers than Spock. Why would anyone accept them?

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thoreau
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by thoreau » 25 Oct 2017, 12:39

What FFF said.

And NdGT isn't much of a New Atheist. He is an an atheist but he isn't strident about atheism (or anything else). His demeanor is more smug but in a media-friendly way. He's the guy everyone would want to have a drink with at the TED Conference, not the guy telling off everyone at the TED Conference.
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Dangerman
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Dangerman » 25 Oct 2017, 12:52

I don't think we can put Rebecca from SGttU and Sam Harris in the same group of atheists. Are we differentiating between Atheism+ and New Atheism?

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 25 Oct 2017, 13:01

Yes, I am.

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 25 Oct 2017, 13:10

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:33
Yeah, I don't think you actually have met leftists or regular Democrats.

The yelling at women in chadors types are more like volcel evpsych loving versions of catcallers than Spock. Why would anyone accept them?
I don't understand the last two sentences.

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thoreau
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by thoreau » 25 Oct 2017, 13:14

Atheism+ and New Atheism are, as I understand the situation, pretty much opposites.

As to Nicole's point about dead grandmothers, there's a certain type of liberal whose beloved grandfather is very male, white, and Christian, and who could comfortably read a critique of whiteness and maleness, and could probably stomach a critique of Christianity and its sins and false promises, but would be uncomfortable reading a critique of religion that included Muslims.

EDITED TO FIX AUTOCORRECT SNAFU
Last edited by thoreau on 25 Oct 2017, 13:36, edited 1 time in total.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 25 Oct 2017, 13:24

Only a small minority of people, including most 'believers,' have ever thought deeply about the existence of God, are far more likely to hold opinions about specific religious claims or beliefs and vaguely believe something like Pascal's wager as long as it doesn't actually involve anything more than 'belief' on their part.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Eric the .5b » 25 Oct 2017, 14:15

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:08
I think it's that New Atheists come across as bigots. Attacking Islam might mean the KSA is bad, but that's like saying child molesters are bad. And they don't come across as attacking the Saudis, they come across as attacking my falafel guy and yelling at women in chadors.
Bingo.

New Atheists fundamentally take a huge facet of human diversity - religious belief - and declare that it's got to go. They're mostly a bunch of straight, white older guys saying they have the correct answer to everything, and that everyone else is deluded. Just on the face of it, exactly what version of the modem left is going to glom onto that?

And that's before you get into the main figures being a bunch of Pauling-yammering-about-vitamin c goons who think they're owed a hearing on subjects they know nothing about.

I'm saying this to myself as much as anyone, because years back, I worried that they might have some legs...
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nicole
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 25 Oct 2017, 14:31

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:15
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:08
I think it's that New Atheists come across as bigots. Attacking Islam might mean the KSA is bad, but that's like saying child molesters are bad. And they don't come across as attacking the Saudis, they come across as attacking my falafel guy and yelling at women in chadors.
Bingo.

New Atheists fundamentally take a huge facet of human diversity - religious belief - and declare that it's got to go. They're mostly a bunch of straight, white older guys saying they have the correct answer to everything, and that everyone else is deluded. Just on the face of it, exactly what version of the modem left is going to glom onto that?
But...isn't the reason for that the fact that the left *doesnt agree they are right*?
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Sliced bagels aren't why trump won; it's why it doesn't matter who wins." -dhex

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Eric the .5b » 25 Oct 2017, 19:41

nicole wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:31
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:15
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:08
I think it's that New Atheists come across as bigots. Attacking Islam might mean the KSA is bad, but that's like saying child molesters are bad. And they don't come across as attacking the Saudis, they come across as attacking my falafel guy and yelling at women in chadors.
Bingo.

New Atheists fundamentally take a huge facet of human diversity - religious belief - and declare that it's got to go. They're mostly a bunch of straight, white older guys saying they have the correct answer to everything, and that everyone else is deluded. Just on the face of it, exactly what version of the modem left is going to glom onto that?
But...isn't the reason for that the fact that the left *doesnt agree they are right*?
Can you please unpack that a bit? Right about what, specifically?
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nicole
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 26 Oct 2017, 08:36

My beef is with what the Baffler article says that Alexander agrees with, that the NAs were just mouthing platitudes that their audience of educated Blues already agreed with, like "there is no god." That's wrong as an empirical matter; they say things like "there is no god, and it matters," "it's child abuse to teach children religion," and "elective infant circumcision should be illegal." None of those things are platitudes everyone agrees with, even among educated high-culture Blues. The NAs don't actually share a fundamental belief with many of those people at all.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by dbcooper » 26 Oct 2017, 09:25

"New Atheists" have done and said a lot of stupid shit. None of which compares to the religious outcome of maximising the birth rate all over our distressed planet.

Those people are actively campaigning for our environmental destruction, and would happy to see the extinction of large fauna worldwide. To prevent africans from having the pill they would kill us all.

They are easily the most dangerous and overall evil people on the planet.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 26 Oct 2017, 10:13

Oooh. Hmm. No. I'm going with the people who shrug or roll their eyes when confronted with 2.something billion Indian and Chinese people elevated out of poverty by global capitalism because that's not the moral high horse they care to ride.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Oct 2017, 10:54

JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 10:13
Oooh. Hmm. No. I'm going with the people who shrug or roll their eyes when confronted with 2.something billion Indian and Chinese people elevated out of poverty by global capitalism because that's not the moral high horse they care to ride.
Yeah, no. Sure that's dumb, but they aren't anywhere near power, unless you mean the MAGA types who both hate free trade and want to stick their dicks in a coal seam.

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Sandy
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Sandy » 26 Oct 2017, 11:05

Fin Fang Foom wrote:Yeah, I don't think you actually have met leftists or regular Democrats.

The yelling at women in chadors types are more like volcel evpsych loving versions of catcallers than Spock. Why would anyone accept them?
Yeah, I don’t think you actually have met new atheists.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 26 Oct 2017, 11:06

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 10:54
JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 10:13
Oooh. Hmm. No. I'm going with the people who shrug or roll their eyes when confronted with 2.something billion Indian and Chinese people elevated out of poverty by global capitalism because that's not the moral high horse they care to ride.
Yeah, no. Sure that's dumb, but they aren't anywhere near power, unless you mean the MAGA types who both hate free trade and want to stick their dicks in a coal seam.
That's all bernie people and all MAGA people. Who isn't close to power?

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Oct 2017, 11:09

The Bernie people aren't, and the MAGA types so far aren't actually getting anything. The people most likely to be hurt by them are Americans, anyways.

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 26 Oct 2017, 11:10

Your argument is Pat Robertson is closer to power than Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders? If I add E Warren does that help?

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nicole
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 26 Oct 2017, 11:15

I mean here in real life we hinge African aid funding on keeping abortion secret and bajillions of people are still in thrall to priests who say condoms are bad. You don't need Pat Robertson to be "close to power" when instead you have millions of people thinking god wants them to procreate.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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JasonL
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 26 Oct 2017, 11:17

What's the effect of that really though? The sentiment is awful, but aid is a) still given and b) a miniscule drop in the bucket affecting overall birth rates.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Aresen » 26 Oct 2017, 11:20

JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:10
Your argument is Pat Robertson is closer to power than Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders? If I add E Warren does that help?
Pat Robertson and that ilk can get an audience with the POTUS (of any party) to advance a political agenda far more easily than Neil deGrasse Tyson (or even the president of the AAAS.)
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