The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

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Warren
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Re: The son of

Post by Warren » 06 Oct 2019, 10:04

JasonL wrote:
06 Oct 2019, 09:26
Like stranger danger. Like school shooting. Like drugs are bad. Like sexting. Like terrorism. Like human trafficking. Like opioid crisis. Like the never ending string of things that are bad in some dimension that someone wants to make The Focus of All Our Efforts. Those people who do that need to be mocked - they don’t want “admit this thing entails problems” they want “join me in in my kooky quest to make the world stop every time I mention this because it is end times”.
You should have went with "like abortion is murder".
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

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Jennifer
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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 06 Oct 2019, 14:33

JasonL wrote:
06 Oct 2019, 09:26
Like stranger danger. Like school shooting. Like drugs are bad. Like sexting. Like terrorism. Like human trafficking. Like opioid crisis. Like the never ending string of things that are bad in some dimension that someone wants to make The Focus of All Our Efforts. Those people who do that need to be mocked - they don’t want “admit this thing entails problems” they want “join me in in my kooky quest to make the world stop every time I mention this because it is end times”.
Again, I don't deny that various ideas regarding such things deserve mockery -- but, when people go overboard on "solutions" to school shootings (abolish the second amendment, etc.), do you deny that school shootings exist at all (or go Full Alex Jones and insist they're all "false flags")?

Should we mock the "opioid crisis" people by insisting that opioid addiction doesn't exist and only liars and fools claim otherwise?

Back in the day, IIRC, you and I disagreed about what is To Be Done about terrorism -- specifically, you thought the government could/should use torture to get information from suspected terrorists, whereas I opposed it -- but neither I nor any other torture opponent tried mocking the pro-torture people by insisting that "terrorism does not exist." If we did, that would not be "mockery of the cowards who wanted to trash the constitution;" that would be "denial of reality."

The hell of it is, I honestly don't know if you refuse to admit the difference, or if you are genuinely incapable of seeing it.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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JasonL
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 07 Oct 2019, 09:47

I don't remember being pro torture of suspected terrorists. I remember not taking it off the table in an instance of nuclear terrorism / ticking timebomb of wmd significance. I'm not in general pro torture and was not back then. I did not and do not like the lack of effective deterrence against non state actors who may have access to back door support by state treasuries - i.e. states sponsored terrorism executed by non state entities. I'm not pro torture or war to resolve those concerns except in fairly extreme conditions. I used to be more naive that military force could be effective deployed against these kinds of states with outcomes other than horrific, but Iraq put that to bed.

But, in the general instance, you will pound and pound on the idea that "ADMIT ITS A PROBLEM" but that actually doesn't mean anything because "a problem" has an implied magnitude and what you really want is to act like the magnitude deserves some kind of special recognition among other problems. The right answer for school shootings, to me, is yes to ignore them. Do nothing. Act like it's not a problem because the magnitude of risk doesn't come close to warranting the steps being proposed by people who keep harping on DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. Same thing with pretty much every panic.

People are kind of poop at identifying real risk and tradeoffs. Global Climate is a set of problems. Low growth and global poverty is another set of problems. There are levers that actually, demonstrably improve global poverty and yes those may make carbon related climate issue worse. There, to date, are not really any levers to pull on the climate - again I'm a very large carbon tax guy and have been for a decade, but I can't make China do it too, and I don't actually have any reliable evidence it will do anything. I choose that option because taxing stuff other than carbon is worse than taxing carbon if you think carbon is "a problem".

So while some people bounce around from end times because of peak oil to end times because of climate to end times because of trump or end times because of moral decay to end times because of guns - very little is actually end times and the people screaming and gnashing teeth are almost always wrong in the thing that matters - the magnitude of risk and the costs we should be willing to pay to make their panic subside.

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Warren
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Warren » 07 Oct 2019, 09:54

JasonL wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 09:47
I don't remember being pro torture of suspected terrorists. I remember not taking it off the table in an instance of nuclear terrorism / ticking timebomb of wmd significance.
FTR I consider this to be a pro torture position.
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

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JasonL
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 07 Oct 2019, 09:55

Warren wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 09:54
JasonL wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 09:47
I don't remember being pro torture of suspected terrorists. I remember not taking it off the table in an instance of nuclear terrorism / ticking timebomb of wmd significance.
FTR I consider this to be a pro torture position.
That's fine.

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Aresen
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Aresen » 07 Oct 2019, 12:27

JasonL wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 09:47
I don't remember being pro torture of suspected terrorists. I remember not taking it off the table in an instance of nuclear terrorism / ticking timebomb of wmd significance.
The 'ticking nuke' scenario has never existed and probably never will exist. How likely is it that you are going to find a single person - or a small group of people - with critical knowledge just days/hours before a nuke or other WMD is used?

Use 9/11 as an example: Suppose you had found out Mohammed Atta & co were in the US on 9/10. What possible information could you have gained more than "Watch them closely and, if they try to board a plane, detain them?"
There, to date, are not really any levers to pull on the climate - again I'm a very large carbon tax guy and have been for a decade, but I can't make China do it too, and I don't actually have any reliable evidence it will do anything. I choose that option because taxing stuff other than carbon is worse than taxing carbon if you think carbon is "a problem".
I go for the carbon tax for the feature that it makes alternative energy sources relatively more attractive. No other reason. I really despise the greenie attempts to direct the funds into their pet projects like wind and solar farms, which I suspect will do more harm than good and will definitely be fraught with cronyism and fraud.
So while some people bounce around from end times because of peak oil to end times because of climate to end times because of trump or end times because of moral decay to end times because of guns - very little is actually end times and the people screaming and gnashing teeth are almost always wrong in the thing that matters - the magnitude of risk and the costs we should be willing to pay to make their panic subside.
The endless 'crises' that people identify as 'requiring solutions' (government solutions) convince me and many others that most crises are masks for power-grabs.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Jennifer
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 07 Oct 2019, 15:34

JasonL wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 09:47

But, in the general instance, you will pound and pound on the idea that "ADMIT ITS A PROBLEM" but that actually doesn't mean anything because "a problem" has an implied magnitude and what you really want is to act like the magnitude deserves some kind of special recognition among other problems. The right answer for school shootings, to me, is yes to ignore them. Do nothing. Act like it's not a problem because the magnitude of risk doesn't come close to warranting the steps being proposed by people who keep harping on DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.
Which, again, is entirely different from "deny that school shootings exist at all--nobody died at Sandy Hook, nobody died at Columbine, it's all false flags and crisis actors and UN plots to confiscate everybody's guns."
Global Climate is a set of problems. Low growth and global poverty is another set of problems. There are levers that actually, demonstrably improve global poverty and yes those may make carbon related climate issue worse. There, to date, are not really any levers to pull on the climate - again I'm a very large carbon tax guy and have been for a decade, but I can't make China do it too, and I don't actually have any reliable evidence it will do anything. I choose that option because taxing stuff other than carbon is worse than taxing carbon if you think carbon is "a problem".
See, now, THIS is a nuanced way to look at the issue -- "Yes, the changing climate is causing problems, but on the other hand we must take care not to offer 'solutions' that cause more and worse problems" -- but that is not what the South Park boys said in their first Manbearpig episode. What they said was "The climate's not changing at all, the climate is not a problem or a set of problems, and anyone claiming otherwise is either a liar or a fool."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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JasonL
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 07 Oct 2019, 16:22

Whether is central theme of manbearpig is that it doesn't exist or that al gore was hyperventilating about it I guess is a matter of perspective. They felt the need I guess to do a corrective and they rarely do that, but I don't think it's super important one way or the other because I always saw the joke as operating at the expense of sanctimonious hyperventilation, which still works in 2019. I frankly love how much liberal people hate that show and blame it for exacerbating all manner of social ills and I hope they keep right on doing that. An apology tour would be unnecessary and unfortunate. Notably, nobody asks Jon Stewart or other Comedians in Chief of the DNC to apologize for jokes very often.

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Jennifer
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 07 Oct 2019, 22:08

JasonL wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 16:22
Whether is central theme of manbearpig is that it doesn't exist or that al gore was hyperventilating about it I guess is a matter of perspective.
You guessed wrong. (Remember, too, that Manbearpig appeared again as of the completely made-up villains in the "Imaginationland" multi-part episode.)
An apology tour would be unnecessary and unfortunate.
I agree. Did anyone here suggest otherwise? If so, I must not have seen that post.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Jennifer
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 07 Oct 2019, 23:15

Quelle surprise: after last week's episode criticizing Chinese censorship (and other, even more massive human-rights violations), China has scrubbed all references to South Park off its internet.

https://reason.com/2019/10/07/china-sou ... ensorship/
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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