The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

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Painboy
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Re: The son of

Post by Painboy » 28 Sep 2019, 15:23

Jennifer wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 01:05
JasonL wrote:
27 Sep 2019, 23:56
So - no. He wasn’t right per se. it’s one thing. The continuing story of people making it an existential crisis who won’t tolerate any change to anything like gas prices tells you that there would be heavy, heavy costs to decades of throwing money at a problem and paying for it in growth.
Except it does not follow that the only alternative to "decades of throwing money at a problem" is "ignore the problem or deny it even exists, and mock those who say otherwise."
So this is something I've been searching for phrase or term to use about this kind of behavior.

The thing is Gore and some of the early AGW advocates did not have the data to support their claims at that time. The fact they were "right" about AGW is essentially happenstance. They acted with a certainty they had no right to have. There remained a great deal of work to do and lots other measurements before there was good handle on exactly what was happening. Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.

Additionally Gore was banging the doomsday drum years ago taking the absolute worst case scenarios as default, despite the fact the studies he was citing even said those numbers were highly unlikely. He's just a scaremonger, and by the country's current views on AGW, likely was counterproductive. Especially as he was one of many that turned it into a culture war issue. Had he and his other pals put aside their ideology a bit and advocated for nuclear power plants instead of pie in the sky "green" technology that didn't even exist yet we might not be in the situation we're in.

So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.

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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 28 Sep 2019, 16:57

Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 15:23
Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.... So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.
And, presumably, not going to call foul on the Republicans just because they happened to be "wrong" on a couple dozen other things? Perhaps now we'd have a better idea what the actual effects and scale of the issue is had the GOP not spent the last generation insisting "the issue" is entirely a lie.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by dhex » 28 Sep 2019, 17:02

The dark crystal series is mostly good but kinda not great bc the gelfling puppets don't move parts of their faces so they all look like they're kermits post apocalyptic inbred children.
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Re: The son of

Post by Painboy » 28 Sep 2019, 21:59

Jennifer wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 16:57
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 15:23
Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.... So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.
And, presumably, not going to call foul on the Republicans just because they happened to be "wrong" on a couple dozen other things? Perhaps now we'd have a better idea what the actual effects and scale of the issue is had the GOP not spent the last generation insisting "the issue" is entirely a lie.
The stupidity of the GOP doesn't excuse Gore being a dumbass.

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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 29 Sep 2019, 15:11

Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:59
Jennifer wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 16:57
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 15:23
Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.... So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.
And, presumably, not going to call foul on the Republicans just because they happened to be "wrong" on a couple dozen other things? Perhaps now we'd have a better idea what the actual effects and scale of the issue is had the GOP not spent the last generation insisting "the issue" is entirely a lie.
The stupidity of the GOP doesn't excuse Gore being a dumbass.
Nor does Gore being a dumbass justify the GOP's wholesale embrace of science denial. If Gore ran around peddling essential oils as the cure for cancer, one can say "That's bullshit" without adding "By the way, cancer does not even exist, and anyone claiming otherwise is a liberal liar, and state-level GOPs ought to pass laws making it illegal to include cancer patients in future healthcare-cost projections, and... ."
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Re: The son of

Post by Painboy » 29 Sep 2019, 15:20

Jennifer wrote:
29 Sep 2019, 15:11
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:59
Jennifer wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 16:57
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 15:23
Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.... So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.
And, presumably, not going to call foul on the Republicans just because they happened to be "wrong" on a couple dozen other things? Perhaps now we'd have a better idea what the actual effects and scale of the issue is had the GOP not spent the last generation insisting "the issue" is entirely a lie.
The stupidity of the GOP doesn't excuse Gore being a dumbass.
Nor does Gore being a dumbass justify the GOP's wholesale embrace of science denial. If Gore ran around peddling essential oils as the cure for cancer, one can say "That's bullshit" without adding "By the way, cancer does not even exist, and anyone claiming otherwise is a liberal liar, and state-level GOPs ought to pass laws making it illegal to include cancer patients in future healthcare-cost projections, and... ."
Which has nothing to do with Gore being an asshat.

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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 29 Sep 2019, 16:09

Painboy wrote:
29 Sep 2019, 15:20
Jennifer wrote:
29 Sep 2019, 15:11
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 21:59
Jennifer wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 16:57
Painboy wrote:
28 Sep 2019, 15:23
Even now there is still is a lot of unknowns as to what the actual effects and scale of the issue is.... So I'm not giving Gore a pass just because he happened to be "right" on a couple of things.
And, presumably, not going to call foul on the Republicans just because they happened to be "wrong" on a couple dozen other things? Perhaps now we'd have a better idea what the actual effects and scale of the issue is had the GOP not spent the last generation insisting "the issue" is entirely a lie.
The stupidity of the GOP doesn't excuse Gore being a dumbass.
Nor does Gore being a dumbass justify the GOP's wholesale embrace of science denial. If Gore ran around peddling essential oils as the cure for cancer, one can say "That's bullshit" without adding "By the way, cancer does not even exist, and anyone claiming otherwise is a liberal liar, and state-level GOPs ought to pass laws making it illegal to include cancer patients in future healthcare-cost projections, and... ."
Which has nothing to do with Gore being an asshat.
Just as Gore's being an asshat has nothing to do with the statement "Those people [including last-decade Trey Parker and Matt Stone, to go back to the original start of this subthread] who mocked the very idea of manmade climate change being real, let alone the idea that it could prove problematic for people, were wrong."
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by lunchstealer » 30 Sep 2019, 18:19

It's probably worth having the mods pull this to the 400ppm thread, but I think the extent to which the science was unclear when Gore was making a big deal of this is... kinda false. Yes his worst case scenario hyping was a little over the top, but the last real doubt about the veracity of anthropogenic climate change was cinched in the mid to late '90s when the disparity between ground and satellite observations was accounted for. Gore didn't really make climate change a big thing in his campaign. It was mostly LAWWWWK BAWWWX and surplus means SPEND EVERYTHING and oh yeah let's do some technocratic stuff like subsidize solar I guess. He didn't go full Beardy McInconvenient until well into the BushDubs administration.

So the extent to which Gore overplayed his hand is... not nearly so much as the default libertarian position would have it. The science was far more settled than even Bailey was saying. Bailey was about 10 years too late in conceding, mostly due to ideological confirmation bias (which happens to the best of us).
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by thoreau » 30 Sep 2019, 18:30

Even if AGW weren't a thing, there would still be plenty of good reasons to favor renewables and nuclear over fossil fuels (e.g. other effects of emissions, the tremendous energy density in nuclear fuel, the geopolitical problems of oil). And the science behind AGW concerns is pretty solid. Yes, there are error bars, but even the lower-end scenarios are...not good.

I seriously think this is just a matter of libertarians not wanting environmentalists to be right about anything, partly because environmentalists are often obnoxious and wrong, and partly because fossil fuel industries donate a portion of their profits to libertarian causes (while also supporting shitty foreign policy). But nuclear is a huge part of the solution, and that makes environmentalists cry, so what if every statement about the danger of global warming includes a disclaimer that we support nuclear and we want to punch hippies in the face with uranium-plated brass knuckles?
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Hugh Akston » 30 Sep 2019, 18:40

thoreau wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:30
I seriously think this is just a matter of libertarians not wanting environmentalists to be right about anything, partly because environmentalists are often obnoxious and wrong, and partly because fossil fuel industries donate a portion of their profits to libertarian causes (while also supporting shitty foreign policy).
You may not be aware that when we libertarians mention receiving subsidy checks from Koch industries, it is meant as a satirical reference to people who seriously think that the opinions of their ideological rivals are false consciousness bought by large corporate donors, not an admission of such.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 30 Sep 2019, 19:45

thoreau wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 18:30
I seriously think this is just a matter of libertarians not wanting environmentalists to be right about anything, partly because environmentalists are often obnoxious and wrong, and partly because fossil fuel industries donate a portion of their profits to libertarian causes (while also supporting shitty foreign policy).
I also think a lot of it is "When your only tool is an individualistic free-market no-government hammer, you'll ignore those tasks requiring a collective-action wrench." Like any other tragedy of the commons problem: it's much cheaper and easier for me personally, or you personally, to do certain things that are super-irresponsible ("I think I'll just dump my used motor oil on the ground here -- it's all downstream from MY water supply anyway"; "Not making sure my car meets pollution-reduction standards would be cheaper than making sure my car meets them") ... reducing carbon/methane emissions and doing what we can to mitigate or work around the damage already done is not something that can be entirely (or even mostly) solved by people all just doing their own thing while the Powers-That-Be adopt a hands-off attitude.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 30 Sep 2019, 19:54

There is some of that but there is also an angle like climate is the excuse to hand everything over to the government both conspiracy-wise from the libertarian right and that’s the actual thing from the AOC left.

I find myself eye rolling tho at this idea that Gore would just have subsidized solar and also that somehow would have mattered at all. Then you say he totally wanted to do more he said organizing principle of humanity then people be like stop exaggerating. So are we talking about a tragedy where we didn’t take big steps or are we talking about no real difference but better optics.

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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Painboy » 30 Sep 2019, 21:31

Hans Rosling was like the nicest most open minded guy around and he even called out Gore.

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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 30 Sep 2019, 23:58

I still haven't figured out how to get some of that sweet, sweet Koch cash, dammit!

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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2019, 00:52

JasonL wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 19:54
There is some of that but there is also an angle like climate is the excuse to hand everything over to the government both conspiracy-wise from the libertarian right and that’s the actual thing from the AOC left.
But, recall: the "AOC left" didn't appear until after the GOP had spent an entire generation denying that manmade climate change existed at all. From the perspective of people AOC's age, the GOP has ALWAYS been the party of science denial. Had the GOP instead followed the lead of the first POTUS Bush -- "Yes, it's real and it's a problem, but nothing we can't solve if we put our minds to it" -- who knows how much better off we'd be by now?

(For that matter, South Park's Manbearpig episode would've aged much better had the premise been "Manbearpig [climate change] is real, but Gore's proposed solution won't help" rather than "Manbearpig [climate change] is a complete fantasy and anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.")
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Re: The son of

Post by lunchstealer » 01 Oct 2019, 19:15

JasonL wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 19:54
There is some of that but there is also an angle like climate is the excuse to hand everything over to the government both conspiracy-wise from the libertarian right and that’s the actual thing from the AOC left.

I find myself eye rolling tho at this idea that Gore would just have subsidized solar and also that somehow would have mattered at all. Then you say he totally wanted to do more he said organizing principle of humanity then people be like stop exaggerating. So are we talking about a tragedy where we didn’t take big steps or are we talking about no real difference but better optics.
This is candidate-Gore vs post-chad Climate Crusader Gore. Candidate Gore was pretty bland on climate as a campaign issue. Probably some half-assed attempt at cap-and-trade in addition to solar, but as pres he wouldn't be able to hyperfocus the way he did after he grew the beard.
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Re: The son of

Post by Painboy » 01 Oct 2019, 20:20

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2019, 00:52
JasonL wrote:
30 Sep 2019, 19:54
There is some of that but there is also an angle like climate is the excuse to hand everything over to the government both conspiracy-wise from the libertarian right and that’s the actual thing from the AOC left.
But, recall: the "AOC left" didn't appear until after the GOP had spent an entire generation denying that manmade climate change existed at all. From the perspective of people AOC's age, the GOP has ALWAYS been the party of science denial. Had the GOP instead followed the lead of the first POTUS Bush -- "Yes, it's real and it's a problem, but nothing we can't solve if we put our minds to it" -- who knows how much better off we'd be by now?

(For that matter, South Park's Manbearpig episode would've aged much better had the premise been "Manbearpig [climate change] is real, but Gore's proposed solution won't help" rather than "Manbearpig [climate change] is a complete fantasy and anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.")
The AOC left has been around in one form another since the 70s. They only difference now is they have a louder bullhorn.

The left is an anti-scientific as the right when it comes to things they care about too. Nuclear plants, GMO, economics, etc. They certainly have their own blind spots. Not to mention all the bad science that is out there that each party believes.

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Re: The son of

Post by Jennifer » 02 Oct 2019, 05:23

Painboy wrote:
01 Oct 2019, 20:20

The left is an anti-scientific as the right when it comes to things they care about too. Nuclear plants, GMO, economics, etc. They certainly have their own blind spots. Not to mention all the bad science that is out there that each party believes.
I daresay the right makes it a fuck of a lot easier for the left to get away with it, though. The AOC left and all the others shouting we must "do something" about climate change, for example, likely wouldn't get so much traction among people concerned about the planet, if they weren't Americans' only alternative to "Do nothing because climate change is all a hoax anyway and you're a gullible idiot if you think otherwise."

Plus the left does get it right sometime -- off the top of my head, I'd say it's good that leaded gasoline and housepaints are no longer sold, good that pollution is no longer so bad that rivers in American cities literally catch on fire, good that CFCs are no longer attacking the ozone layer, and good that the country did make other forms of environmental progress, despite opposition from the right wing at the time.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 03 Oct 2019, 12:59

Damn, South Park pulled no punches with last night's China episode, either. If my previously stated theory is true -- that the writer is regretting his previous "It's uncool to think anything matters" stance -- he's definitely making up for it now.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 03 Oct 2019, 15:37

It's uncool to think everything is the end of the world, that anything is The Only Thing That Matters because End Times. Lots of stuff matters in some degree, very few to no things are existential dooooom threats. If they back away from mockery of hyperbolic whining it is a change to formula, but it was something they used to great effect. Haven't seen any of the new season.

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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Oct 2019, 17:22

Southpark was on in the background (I think a rerun ep but not certain) and there was an ad for 'Trumpy Bear' that at first I thought was satire a la Cherokee Hair Tampons, but nope it appears to be an actual product that is actually marketed to Trumpenproles during ad breaks on South Park.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Oct 2019, 17:57

We actually had a Trumpy Bear thread only last year. Seems like it's been longer, though.

This whole presidency seems like it's been longer.
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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 04 Oct 2019, 18:45

Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 17:57
We actually had a Trumpy Bear thread only last year. Seems like it's been longer, though.

This whole presidency seems like it's been longer.
It's been like being forced to watch a bad Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode of the 1927 Napoleon.

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Re: The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by Jennifer » 05 Oct 2019, 22:57

JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 15:37
If they back away from mockery of hyperbolic whining it is a change to formula,
So ... you apparently believe "denying that a real problem exists" equals "mockery of hyperbolic whining?" Like, when a hyperbolic drug warrior insists "One hit of smokable cocaine is all it takes to become addicted," the way to "mock" this is to insist repeatedly that cocaine addiction does not exist and only fools think otherwise?
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The son of "What the hell are YOU staring at?"

Post by JasonL » 06 Oct 2019, 09:26

Like stranger danger. Like school shooting. Like drugs are bad. Like sexting. Like terrorism. Like human trafficking. Like opioid crisis. Like the never ending string of things that are bad in some dimension that someone wants to make The Focus of All Our Efforts. Those people who do that need to be mocked - they don’t want “admit this thing entails problems” they want “join me in in my kooky quest to make the world stop every time I mention this because it is end times”.

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