I may want to see that?

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Feb 2018, 17:07

If the choice is between Stalin or Hitler winning, Stalin is the clear preference.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Highway » 15 Feb 2018, 17:18

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 17:07
If the choice is between Stalin or Hitler winning, Stalin is the clear preference.
I'm gonna have to agree with FFF here. It's a shitty choice that hopefully noone would ever have to make again, but it's still correct. It doesn't mean that Stalin was good.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by JasonL » 15 Feb 2018, 17:50

Woo that guy murdered and starved and imprisoned a lot of people guys. He's at least the Dan Marino of totalitarian murderers and I give him no credit for intent. His inadvertent starvation is just as bad as his deliberate actions. If we are playing hypotheticals, does a hitler win preclude a stalinist Mao?

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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by thoreau » 15 Feb 2018, 17:58

I think everyone here agrees that the best outcome in the European theater would have been for Hitler to lose, the West to occupy everything up to the Soviet borders, and Stalin to have a convenient illness once Hitler fell.

Since that didn't happen in this timeline, I think we're all just glad that at least the winner in the European theater was the guy who wanted to rule brutally rather than the guy who wanted to cleanse the globe.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Feb 2018, 18:19

JasonL wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 17:50
Woo that guy murdered and starved and imprisoned a lot of people guys. He's at least the Dan Marino of totalitarian murderers and I give him no credit for intent. His inadvertent starvation is just as bad as his deliberate actions. If we are playing hypotheticals, does a hitler win preclude a stalinist Mao?
You seem to be letting Hitler off the hook for the more than 50 million dead during the war. Potentially much more than that, actually. And Stalin was pretty much done with mass killing at the end of the war. Hitler would have killed a lot more.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Eric the .5b » 15 Feb 2018, 21:52

JasonL wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 17:50
Woo that guy murdered and starved and imprisoned a lot of people guys. He's at least the Dan Marino of totalitarian murderers and I give him no credit for intent. His inadvertent starvation is just as bad as his deliberate actions. If we are playing hypotheticals, does a hitler win preclude a stalinist Mao?
And that's only if you're of the "The Holodomor was not planned" school of thought.

And contra Soviet history, WW2 didn't start with Operation Barbarossa. Stalin deserves a share of that blood on his hands.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 01:13

I'm in the "Stalin was less-bad than Hitler" camp.

It's true that Communism killed a lot more people than Nazism, but Communism also had a much longer timeline and much larger populations to work with. For example: in our for-reals timeline, much of postwar sub-Saharan Africa went Communist, fucking up the economy so bad that hundreds of millions of black Africans live in shitty poverty to this day. By contrast, if the Nazis had taken over that same space for the same time, there would not be hundreds of millions of Africans living there in poverty -- because they all would've been slaughtered in the camps. Communist Poland was an impoverished shithole -- I knew a couple of ex-Pole immigrant musicians during my newspaper days in Connecticut, and how they lived when still in Communist Poland -- but at least those poorly paid unfree Commie Slavic Europeans were allowed to pursue their Commie dreams of being musicians, not worked to death as slave labor as the Nazis did to non-Jewish Slavs.

Given my own ethnicity, I'd definitely rather take my chances under Communism than go with the Nazis where I wouldn't have a chance at all.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by thoreau » 16 Feb 2018, 01:31

I'm glad that both Nazism and Soviet Communism are gone, and while ideally both would have vanished early on (or not have appeared at all in a better world), I consider it the lesser evil for Soviet Communism to crush Nazism and then linger before choking on its own unworkability.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Aresen » 16 Feb 2018, 01:34

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 18:19
JasonL wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 17:50
Woo that guy murdered and starved and imprisoned a lot of people guys. He's at least the Dan Marino of totalitarian murderers and I give him no credit for intent. His inadvertent starvation is just as bad as his deliberate actions. If we are playing hypotheticals, does a hitler win preclude a stalinist Mao?
You seem to be letting Hitler off the hook for the more than 50 million dead during the war. Potentially much more than that, actually. And Stalin was pretty much done with mass killing at the end of the war. Hitler would have killed a lot more.
There were several purges after the war: The Vlasov men, more purges in the Ukraine, the "Doctor's Plot", the "Rootless Cosmopolitans" (= Jews). There were also the purges in the occupied countries of Eastern Europe (Jan Masaryk et al).

TBS, the Communist mass murders were less overtly ethnically based than Hitler's, but Great Russians basically despised and distrusted anyone who was not one of 'their own.' (Still do, in fact.)
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by thoreau » 16 Feb 2018, 01:53

Different questions get different answers.

If the question is whether Hitler or Stalin was, as a human being, worse, I see no point in choosing. They were both terrible.

If the question is whether the world would have been better off with Hitler beating Stalin and then holding that territory, my answer is no. The Soviet and Nazi systems were both terrible and murderous, but Stalin's successors were able to dial it back down from 11 to merely "awful and often bloody." I'm not sure that Hitler's successors could have done the same, in a hypothetical world where the Nazis got a large chunk of the globe.

If the question is whether I fault an Eastern European who decided to collaborate with the Germans against the Russians, my answer depends on whether they decided to participate in genocide or similar atrocities. If they participated in atrocities, fuck 'em. If they helped the Germans against Russian military targets, honestly, I can't judge somebody who was there at ground level and sided with whichever tyrant was trying to drive out the other one. My big picture answer might be that I prefer Stalin beating Hitler to Hitler beating Stalin, but I can't judge some poor schmuck on the ground who hated them both and picked a side without the benefit of 70+ years of historical analysis. If the Soviets had starved my family and I didn't personally know any Jews, and some well-fed Germans showed up and promised to pay for help, maybe I would have helped German soldiers as well. Hard to say sitting here on my couch.

If the question is whether the world would have been better off with Hitler beating Stalin and then the Nazi system collapsing, well, sure (provided that the Nazi system didn't collapse into something similarly murderous), but I'm not seeing the path that would have gotten us there.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Jennifer
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 01:56

Aresen wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 01:34
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 18:19
JasonL wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 17:50
Woo that guy murdered and starved and imprisoned a lot of people guys. He's at least the Dan Marino of totalitarian murderers and I give him no credit for intent. His inadvertent starvation is just as bad as his deliberate actions. If we are playing hypotheticals, does a hitler win preclude a stalinist Mao?
You seem to be letting Hitler off the hook for the more than 50 million dead during the war. Potentially much more than that, actually. And Stalin was pretty much done with mass killing at the end of the war. Hitler would have killed a lot more.
There were several purges after the war: The Vlasov men, more purges in the Ukraine, the "Doctor's Plot", the "Rootless Cosmopolitans" (= Jews). There were also the purges in the occupied countries of Eastern Europe (Jan Masaryk et al).

TBS, the Communist mass murders were less overtly ethnically based than Hitler's, but Great Russians basically despised and distrusted anyone who was not one of 'their own.' (Still do, in fact.)
The Communist murders were also far less thorough--the gulag for all its horror wasn't an extermination camp. Jews in Soviet Russia and Commie Europe in general certainly had a bad time of it with some of them being murdered, but Communism never tried to systematically wipe all ALL of them the way Nazism tried to. The only reason Nazism seems less bad than Communism right now is because Nazism was destroyed after only 12 years, with the active genocide-murder efforts "only" going on for slightly more than half that time, and even at its zenith the Nazis controlled less land and people overall than the Communists did.

IOW, the "Hitler is less bad than Stalin" arguments are based on what actually happened in our history when Hitler lost power in 1945, whereas us "Stalin is less bad than Hitler" arguments are based on what would have happened had Nazi Germany won the war.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Feb 2018, 04:55

Jennifer wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 01:56
The Communist murders were also far less thorough--the gulag for all its horror wasn't an extermination camp. Jews in Soviet Russia and Commie Europe in general certainly had a bad time of it with some of them being murdered, but Communism never tried to systematically wipe all ALL of them the way Nazism tried to. The only reason Nazism seems less bad than Communism right now is because Nazism was destroyed after only 12 years, with the active genocide-murder efforts "only" going on for slightly more than half that time, and even at its zenith the Nazis controlled less land and people overall than the Communists did.
By that logic, isn't Hitler just a miscreant compared to Pol Pot?

I'm personally not interested in dying on the hill of "Stalin was exactly as bad as Hitler", but arguing which had fewer megadeaths per year per square mile or whatever is kinda bizarre (and plays into the arguments of the international lefties and Russian right-wingers who minimize or deny Stalin's crimes). They're absolutely in the same first-class tier of evil fuckheadery and harm to humanity, along with Mao.

And contra FFF, a Stalin-less WW2 is a big What-if that doesn't have clearly bad endings. Russian didn't need Stalin to fend off invasions, before. And taking down the USSR, which I'm not sure was ever really possible for Germany, would not have saved the Third Reich. Even going down, the USSR would have eaten vast numbers of German men and materiel. And then, the Germans would have had to try to secure another two Europes of land area while still dealing with the Western Allies.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 05:17

Eric the .5b wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 04:55
Jennifer wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 01:56
The Communist murders were also far less thorough--the gulag for all its horror wasn't an extermination camp. Jews in Soviet Russia and Commie Europe in general certainly had a bad time of it with some of them being murdered, but Communism never tried to systematically wipe all ALL of them the way Nazism tried to. The only reason Nazism seems less bad than Communism right now is because Nazism was destroyed after only 12 years, with the active genocide-murder efforts "only" going on for slightly more than half that time, and even at its zenith the Nazis controlled less land and people overall than the Communists did.
By that logic, isn't Hitler just a miscreant compared to Pol Pot?
If there were some horrible alt-reality where my two choices were "Hitler rules a large chunk of the world for awhile" or "Pol Pot rules instead," I would go with Hitler in that case, just as I'd go with Stalin when it's him or the Nazis.

I'm personally not interested in dying on the hill of "Stalin was exactly as bad as Hitler", but arguing which had fewer megadeaths per year per square mile or whatever is kinda bizarre (and plays into the arguments of the international lefties and Russian right-wingers who minimize or deny Stalin's crimes).
Sure, but a Communist society after Stalin dies is better than a Nazi society once Hitler dies. Communism's whole schtick was "We want to end poverty and bring about the brotherhood of man." Nice idea, impossible conception because human nature goes against Marx's ideas. Still, those were better than Nazism's whole schtick, which was "Hooray for German 'Aryans,' and kill or enslave everybody else."

And -- regarding the question of why I think our reality with Stalin winning was FAR better than the alt-reality where the Nazis won is not only that the Nazis were more purely, inherently evil than Commies, but the Nazis' economic ideas were less stupid -- I mean, sooner or later a Nazi economy would implode, but it would've held out a LOT longer than the Communist economy did.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by JasonL » 16 Feb 2018, 09:13

Eric the .5b wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 01:56
The Communist murders were also far less thorough--the gulag for all its horror wasn't an extermination camp. Jews in Soviet Russia and Commie Europe in general certainly had a bad time of it with some of them being murdered, but Communism never tried to systematically wipe all ALL of them the way Nazism tried to. The only reason Nazism seems less bad than Communism right now is because Nazism was destroyed after only 12 years, with the active genocide-murder efforts "only" going on for slightly more than half that time, and even at its zenith the Nazis controlled less land and people overall than the Communists did.
By that logic, isn't Hitler just a miscreant compared to Pol Pot?

I'm personally not interested in dying on the hill of "Stalin was exactly as bad as Hitler", but arguing which had fewer megadeaths per year per square mile or whatever is kinda bizarre (and plays into the arguments of the international lefties and Russian right-wingers who minimize or deny Stalin's crimes). They're absolutely in the same first-class tier of evil fuckheadery and harm to humanity, along with Mao.
This last thing is a better description of where I really am as well. Nobody engages in hitler reclamation projects - but that shit happens all the times with leftist monsters starting with Stalin.

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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Warren » 16 Feb 2018, 10:18

What the every loving fuck?
I can't believe what I'm reading.
Yeah I don't know who wins "History's Greatest Monster" award, but Stalin is surely a contender.

He defeated Hitler? Yeah, him and Roosevelt. They met Hitler and Mussolini in a Swiss cafe and played three rounds of Rock Paper Sissors.
WTF? Stalin wasn't some sort of military genius. The Russians defeated Hitler the same way the Russians have always defeated invading European armies. A combination of conscription, attrition, and that most devistating Russian defense weapon system; Winter.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Sandy » 16 Feb 2018, 10:24

JasonL wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 09:13
Nobody engages in hitler reclamation projects - but that shit happens all the times with leftist monsters starting with Stalin.
Yeah, the problem in modern society is not "there's too much widespread socially-accepted support of Hitler and too extreme damnation of Stalin." There's the right damnation of Hitler, with the exception that people insist that he's worse than Mao, Pol Pot, and of course Stalin.

Can you imagine T-shirts of one of Franco's right-hand men being a popular fashion accessory?
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by JasonL » 16 Feb 2018, 10:31

Sandy wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:24
JasonL wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 09:13
Nobody engages in hitler reclamation projects - but that shit happens all the times with leftist monsters starting with Stalin.
Yeah, the problem in modern society is not "there's too much widespread socially-accepted support of Hitler and too extreme damnation of Stalin." There's the right damnation of Hitler, with the exception that people insist that he's worse than Mao, Pol Pot, and of course Stalin.

Can you imagine T-shirts of one of Franco's right-hand men being a popular fashion accessory?
I literally had that conversation last weekend with a youngish ladyperson I generally like, but she was doing this thing with communist memes and I asked if they would be as funny as edgy takes on white nationalism. I'm not asking bernie types to be smithians as the only ethical set of views, but they'd damn well better think twice about reclaiming explicitly communist views.

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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Warren » 16 Feb 2018, 10:42

JasonL wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:31
Sandy wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:24
JasonL wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 09:13
Nobody engages in hitler reclamation projects - but that shit happens all the times with leftist monsters starting with Stalin.
Yeah, the problem in modern society is not "there's too much widespread socially-accepted support of Hitler and too extreme damnation of Stalin." There's the right damnation of Hitler, with the exception that people insist that he's worse than Mao, Pol Pot, and of course Stalin.

Can you imagine T-shirts of one of Franco's right-hand men being a popular fashion accessory?
I literally had that conversation last weekend with a youngish ladyperson I generally like, but she was doing this thing with communist memes and I asked if they would be as funny as edgy takes on white nationalism. I'm not asking bernie types to be smithians as the only ethical set of views, but they'd damn well better think twice about reclaiming explicitly communist views.
I can distinguish between True Scotsman communists, Trotskyists and such, and people that venerate truly awful Communists. The Fidel and Che fanboys especially gall me.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 16 Feb 2018, 11:10

So, I'm kinda looking forward to that Annihilation movie.
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Aresen
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Aresen » 16 Feb 2018, 11:11

Warren wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:18
WTF? Stalin wasn't some sort of military genius. The Russians defeated Hitler the same way the Russians have always defeated invading European armies. A combination of conscription, attrition, and that most devistating Russian defense weapon system; Winter.
Exactly. As the saying goes "The Wehrmacht choked to death on Russian Blood".
There was also the liquidation of the entire officer class - especially those with any initiative - in the purges and Stalin's absolutely incompetent strategy from June to December 1941 which enabled Hitler's early victories.
Warren wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:42
I can distinguish between True Scotsman communists, Trotskyists and such, and people that venerate truly awful Communists. The Fidel and Che fanboys especially gall me.
The Trots amuse me in the way that they pretend that Trotsky had nothing to do with the purges. In fact, he helped get them going. ("The dustbin of history" is his phrase, after all.) He approved of them heartily. He also helped create the Red Army. The only differences between Trotsky and Stalin are 1) that Trotsky was more broadly educated and 2) he lost the power struggle with Stalin.

I listened to a debate about the Russian Revolution between Peter Hitchens and a Labor Party apparatchik in which the latter said "There were some mistakes, but..." and then proceeded to spout every talking point of the Third International about Stalin and Russia.

The Fidel Fanboys - especially the likes of Moore - are so stupefyingly credulous that there is no arguing with them. Every claim of the Cuban Communist Party ("everyone in Cuba was illiterate before Communism"; "free health care for all") is swallowed without caveat. They take their Potemkin tours and never make an effort to look around the corner at what is behind the facade.

Che fanboys are just people who worship violence. Make them Muslim and they'd be off to join ISIS.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by MJGreen » 16 Feb 2018, 11:30

The real controversy here is that this is all going in the "I may want to see that" thread.

In The Loop is one of the funniest comedies ever. There should be no hesitation about The Death of Stalin, even if it stars Jeffrey Tambor, who is now being airbrushed out of the promotional materials.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 16 Feb 2018, 11:32

MJGreen wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:30
. . . even if it stars Jeffrey Tambor, who is now being airbrushed out of the promotional materials.
That would be the best sick joke ever. One poster featuring him with the cast and the same one where he's been removed.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by JasonL » 16 Feb 2018, 11:50

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:10
So, I'm kinda looking forward to that Annihilation movie.
Me too.

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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Warren » 16 Feb 2018, 11:52

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:32
MJGreen wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:30
. . . even if it stars Jeffrey Tambor, who is now being airbrushed out of the promotional materials.
That would be the best sick joke ever. One poster featuring him with the cast and the same one where he's been removed.
Oh yes. Best ev-er.
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Re: I may want to see that?

Post by Aresen » 16 Feb 2018, 12:08

Warren wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:52
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:32
MJGreen wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 11:30
. . . even if it stars Jeffrey Tambor, who is now being airbrushed out of the promotional materials.
That would be the best sick joke ever. One poster featuring him with the cast and the same one where he's been removed.
Oh yes. Best ev-er.
Especially on those who didn't get the joke.
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