MARCH MADNESS

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Warren
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 19 Mar 2012, 08:46

D.A. Ridgely wrote:I've hated Georgetown's basketball program since John Thompson and the Patrick Ewing days. Trust me, there are plenty of Hoya haters.
The hell? That was the heyday of Georgetown basketball. Thompson ran a great program (though not an accademic one) and Ewing grew into one of the all time finest players. What's to hate?
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Mar 2012, 11:40

Warren wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:I've hated Georgetown's basketball program since John Thompson and the Patrick Ewing days. Trust me, there are plenty of Hoya haters.
The hell? That was the heyday of Georgetown basketball. Thompson ran a great program (though not an accademic one) and Ewing grew into one of the all time finest players. What's to hate?
*shrug* We have a Hoya or two here who may well feel differently. Here's my take, shared by a number of fellow Washingtonians and no few Georgetown grads I've known:

Even ignoring the stark difference racially between the general Georgetown population and the basketball team -- maybe a good case can be made for that, although it was amusing how many people across the nation who weren't familiar with G'town thought it was a predominantly black school in those days -- I think a case could be made that Thompson's almost fanatically exclusive recruitment and play of black students was, um, well, racist. And while he was extremely supportive of his players in terms of getting them special tutoring to get through Georgetown, the usual criticisms of big sports "student athletes" could be leveled at Georgetown beginning in the Thompson era, criticisms that could not be leveled previously.

Then, too, Thompson refused to play Maryland back when those would have been super games. (In fairness here, Lefty Drisell may well have vetoed such games, but a pox on his program, too.) I think Georgetown did play Virginia once while Ralph Sampson was there, but much of Georgetown's season records in those early years had as much to do with the fact that the Big East was only beginning to be a strong basketball conference as because of Georgetown's actual strength nationally.

And, of course, being an ACC fan, I instinctively hated all Big East teams in those days, anyway.

Finally, the guy was / is basically a bully whose arrogance was the primary factor the U.S. lost to the Soviets in the Olympics.

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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 19 Mar 2012, 13:10

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Warren wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:I've hated Georgetown's basketball program since John Thompson and the Patrick Ewing days. Trust me, there are plenty of Hoya haters.
The hell? That was the heyday of Georgetown basketball. Thompson ran a great program (though not an accademic one) and Ewing grew into one of the all time finest players. What's to hate?
*shrug* We have a Hoya or two here who may well feel differently. Here's my take, shared by a number of fellow Washingtonians and no few Georgetown grads I've known:

Even ignoring the stark difference racially between the general Georgetown population and the basketball team -- maybe a good case can be made for that, although it was amusing how many people across the nation who weren't familiar with G'town thought it was a predominantly black school in those days -- I think a case could be made that Thompson's almost fanatically exclusive recruitment and play of black students was, um, well, racist. And while he was extremely supportive of his players in terms of getting them special tutoring to get through Georgetown, the usual criticisms of big sports "student athletes" could be leveled at Georgetown beginning in the Thompson era, criticisms that could not be leveled previously.

Then, too, Thompson refused to play Maryland back when those would have been super games. (In fairness here, Lefty Drisell may well have vetoed such games, but a pox on his program, too.) I think Georgetown did play Virginia once while Ralph Sampson was there, but much of Georgetown's season records in those early years had as much to do with the fact that the Big East was only beginning to be a strong basketball conference as because of Georgetown's actual strength nationally.

And, of course, being an ACC fan, I instinctively hated all Big East teams in those days, anyway.

Finally, the guy was / is basically a bully whose arrogance was the primary factor the U.S. lost to the Soviets in the Olympics.
Ah. The race stuff doesn't interest me. The accademic stuff I care about only slightly more. Teams that refuse to play each other always look like children throwing a tantrum. Point taken. I too have been a fan of the ACC and share your loathing of the Big East, however I thought Thompson Hoyas were more of an exception to the rest of the conference in their ability to play good basketball and respected them for that. My interest in the Olympics was very much other than basketball. However, I will say that 'arrogant bully' is a prerequisite to coaching Div I ball.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Kolohe » 19 Mar 2012, 23:01

Tournament results if played with head to head graduation rates
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... gradrates/
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Rachel » 19 Mar 2012, 23:14

Kolohe wrote:Tournament results if played with head to head graduation rates
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... gradrates/
Notre Dame, not a surprise at all. But BYU? Aren't they supposed to be fine upstanding Mormon kids? They all dream of going to BYU?
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 00:34

Rachel wrote:
Kolohe wrote:Tournament results if played with head to head graduation rates
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... gradrates/
Notre Dame, not a surprise at all. But BYU? Aren't they supposed to be fine upstanding Mormon kids? They all dream of going to BYU?
Uh huh. BYU gets the pick of the Mormons just like Notre Dame gets the pick of the Catholics (well European Catholics anyway). I don't understand your confusion.

Duke is very surprising. U-Conn is just shameful, I never suspected.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 20 Mar 2012, 01:00

Warren wrote:
Rachel wrote:
Kolohe wrote:Tournament results if played with head to head graduation rates
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... gradrates/
Notre Dame, not a surprise at all. But BYU? Aren't they supposed to be fine upstanding Mormon kids? They all dream of going to BYU?
Uh huh. BYU gets the pick of the Mormons just like Notre Dame gets the pick of the Catholics (well European Catholics anyway). I don't understand your confusion.

Duke is very surprising. U-Conn is just shameful, I never suspected.
Nothing surprising about Duke. Being one of a very few top academic schools that can recruit competitive athletes who could actually have been accepted as non-athletes (Stanford is another exception to the general rule, as is Notre Dame), Duke recruits few who don't genuinely want an education and not just an NBA audition. For the overwhelming majority of schools with nationally ranked programs, however, it's just a sham. And football is even worse.

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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 01:11

D.A. Ridgely wrote:Nothing surprising about Duke. Being one of a very few top academic schools that can recruit competitive athletes who could actually have been accepted as non-athletes (Stanford is another exception to the general rule, as is Notre Dame), Duke recruits few who don't genuinely want an education and not just an NBA audition. For the overwhelming majority of schools with nationally ranked programs, however, it's just a sham. And football is even worse.
I'm still surprised at Duke because they are a powerhouse basketball dynasty. I know the school has an excellent reputation, but if academics is a priority then athletics isn't. ND can do it because as stated above they get the cream of Catholics. Stanford has a solid program, but it's not legendary like Duke.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Highway » 20 Mar 2012, 01:44

Warren wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:Nothing surprising about Duke. Being one of a very few top academic schools that can recruit competitive athletes who could actually have been accepted as non-athletes (Stanford is another exception to the general rule, as is Notre Dame), Duke recruits few who don't genuinely want an education and not just an NBA audition. For the overwhelming majority of schools with nationally ranked programs, however, it's just a sham. And football is even worse.
I'm still surprised at Duke because they are a powerhouse basketball dynasty. I know the school has an excellent reputation, but if academics is a priority then athletics isn't. ND can do it because as stated above they get the cream of Catholics. Stanford has a solid program, but it's not legendary like Duke.
Yeah, but a lot of Duke's legendary status is due to players who played through 4 years of eligibility, in Coach K's system, which does very well at highlighting intelligence and raising the level of all the players together. They've had very very few players leave prior to their senior season. Additionally, you can see the difference between basketball and football in how Duke's teams compete. Especially in college basketball, we can see that player maturity and familiarity with teammates and the system can make a huge difference. That's how all these 'mid major' and 'bracket buster' teams do so well in the tournament. Not because they have the best talent, but because they have mature players who have played together. Duke has just been able to skim from the top of those players for decades.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 20 Mar 2012, 01:54

Also, Duke's "legendary" program began with Krzyzewski. Back in the day when I actually cared about college basketball, Dean Smith and UNC had the "legendary" program. Most fans think Smith's "four corners" strategy was a basketball travesty and it doubtlessly led to the shot clock, but I thought it was hilarious to watch them flummox much larger, stronger teams like Ohio State. Smith was the evil genius back then and Duke was usually competitive but hardly dominant.

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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Highway » 20 Mar 2012, 08:26

Yeah, my parents are UMD grads also, and had far more animosity towards Dean Smith and UNC than Duke. Duke was a small school with good students, but not much in the way of athletic success before Coach K showed up. And since then, he's held that program at one of the most consistent high levels in college sports for 30 years. He's also done it without the 'best' athletes - based on the guys who become 'stars' in the NBA, some Duke players have had good careers, but I can't think of any that have been 'superstars' or 'max players'. Instead, he gets good, smart players who he can fit into his systems.

For a UMD grad, I have an unusually low amount of dislike for Duke.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Kolohe » 20 Mar 2012, 08:34

Grant Hill?
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 08:50

D.A. Ridgely wrote:Also, Duke's "legendary" program began with Krzyzewski. Back in the day when I actually cared about college basketball, Dean Smith and UNC had the "legendary" program. Most fans think Smith's "four corners" strategy was a basketball travesty and it doubtlessly led to the shot clock, but I thought it was hilarious to watch them flummox much larger, stronger teams like Ohio State. Smith was the evil genius back then and Duke was usually competitive but hardly dominant.
I couldn't agree more. I thought I was the only person on the planet that enjoyed watching the four corners executed to perfection. A lot of teams tried it and got burned. Bob Knight's Hoosiers could do it, but few others. I don't know about the evil part, but Smith was a genius and remains my favorite coach.

As far as Duke is concerned, it's all well and good to select players that are serious about academics. Being Duke helps in attracting good players. But if they are willing to pass on talent that isn't committed to education, that means they have to make top ranked teams out of what's left. Does Duke have anything besides it's winning tradition that would attract those few student athletes that excel as both students and athletes?
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Mo » 20 Mar 2012, 09:10

Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand and Kyrie Irving are max players.
Warren wrote:As far as Duke is concerned, it's all well and good to select players that are serious about academics. Being Duke helps in attracting good players. But if they are willing to pass on talent that isn't committed to education, that means they have to make top ranked teams out of what's left. Does duke have anything besides it's winning tradition that would attract those few student athletes that excel as both students and athletes?
They get to play for Duke and attend Duke. It's the same thing that attracts players to Stanford and Notre Dame* for football and periodically basketball. Football being what it is, it's a lot harder to maintain a high level of quality year in and year out and still be picky. Since a basketball team only has to field 5 players on the court, it's a lot easier. Additionally, college hoops is very much a coach's game, so having Coach K is a huge advantage.

That Notre Dame and Stanford are able to maintain their high overall athlete grad rate and have competitive football teams is especially impressive.

* On the football field, at least, the team is much less Catholic than the rest of the student body and probably has the barest majority at most.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 09:16

Stanford has a good program, but it isn't top shelf.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 20 Mar 2012, 09:32

Warren wrote:Stanford has a good program, but it isn't top shelf.
Not the point. A Stanford or Duke degree is the academic equivalent of a degree from the Ivies; arguably more prestigious than most of the Ivies, in fact. But not only do the Ivies not offer "athletic scholarships" (not really a factor since they're swimming in financial aid money for just about every admitted student), they don't compete athletically with other top Division I programs. (They may occasionally play a top team, especially in basketball, but they're likely to be that team's homecoming patsy.) Stanford, Notre Dame and Duke do. So do lots of other excellent schools but, again, the notion that their players are in any legitimate sense academically qualified or motivated to attend those schools is absurd.

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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Highway » 20 Mar 2012, 09:44

Mo wrote:Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand and Kyrie Irving are max players.
And of those 3, only Boozer stayed 4 years at Duke, making Brand and Irving much more atypical of Duke players. But even then, I wouldn't consider any of those three, or any of the other stalwarts from Duke who had long careers (guys like Laettner and Battier) as 'superstar' NBA players. They might have maxed contracts because of the stupid contract system of the NBA, where 30 teams manage to have 45 or 50 'max players', mainly because their contracts are 'slotted', but nobody (except Grant Hill) from Duke has ever been 'the' name talked about in the NBA, and probably never been in the top 10 current players in the NBA at any time.

Grant Hill may be the sole exception, and I may be diluting his early career accomplishments due to his tremendously long career.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 09:51

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Warren wrote:Stanford has a good program, but it isn't top shelf.
Not the point.
No, that is my point. I find it surprising that Duke can consistently field teams that play at the very highest level and consistently graduate their players. I have even more respect for coach K's program because of that. OTOH Bob Knight graduated his players too but they mostly majored in pots for jocks.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Mo » 20 Mar 2012, 09:56

Highway wrote:Grant Hill may be the sole exception, and I may be diluting his early career accomplishments due to his tremendously long career.
The problem with Grant Hill is that he had significant injuries during the prime of his career, so he was never able to reach his potential. Jay Williams had the same problem, at a much earlier time in his career (and due to his own idiocy).
Warren wrote:No, that is my point. I find it surprising that Duke can consistently field teams that play at the very highest level and consistently graduate their players. I have even more respect for coach K's program because of that. OTOH Bob Knight graduated his players too but they mostly majored in pots for jocks.
A lot of that has to do with the system. It speaks highly of Stanford's AD that they can get coaches that can get them in the top 20 in football and/or basketball, where they promptly get poached. Duke has been consistently good because they have had one great coach that has been loyal. If Duke had to deal with changing coaches and style, they would likely resemble Stanford, flashes of greatness mixed with years of mediocrity.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Mar 2012, 10:18

Mo wrote:Duke has been consistently good because they have had one great coach that has been loyal. If Duke had to deal with changing coaches and style, they would likely resemble Stanford, flashes of greatness mixed with years of mediocrity.
At a mid-major school I can understand a coach moving on to bigger and better. Murray State is like a farm team for coaches. But it's hard for me to understand why a coach would leave a school after putting together a top ranked team. Rick Patino was the absolute most baffling in this category. After rising from the ashes of NCAA sanctions he led the Wildcats to a national championship and then left for the pros. I mean, I know he's a NY boy and the Little Italy of Lexington was pretty much his house, but he was a god in KY. In the pros a coach is just a whipping boy. How can you be the boss of guys that make over twice as much as you? And lo and behold he's back in KY, this time at Louisville. And he hasn't been able to catch the lightning this time around. The Cardinals are still dancing, and the way things are these days, I'd say they've got as good a shot at it as anyone. But I watched a few Louisville games this year and they don't look as strong as past Patino teams. Makes me wonder if the game is getting beyond him. *shakes head*
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Mo » 20 Mar 2012, 10:27

Warren wrote:But it's hard for me to understand why a coach would leave a school after putting together a top ranked team.
It's green and it folds (Hint: Not ND's basketball team)
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Highway » 20 Mar 2012, 11:15

Warren wrote:Makes me wonder if the game is getting beyond him. *shakes head*
This makes Coach K's tenure even more amazing to me. It's never seemed as if the game has gotten beyond him, in 30 years now. All the other 'great' coaches that I can think of didn't have that kind of run, Wooden and Knight in particular, even Dean Smith seemed to lose the handle in the last 5 years of his run.

There are lots of reasons a coach might bail on a winning program in college. So much of the game is recruiting, and so much of recruiting is based on the assistants you have. It's usually an insider thing, but a lot of the rise and fall of programs is based on one or two assistants working really hard, and then getting recognized and going somewhere else, taking their contacts and energy with them. This was a continual problem for Gary Williams at Maryland, and even a bit of a problem for Coach K (I keep using this cause I don't want to spell K-trainwreck) when Tommy Amaker got his own coaching gig.

Mo, I had the same assumption about Grant Hill, but before his injury issues, he was far higher up the superstar ladder than I thought he was (exceeding Larry Bird prime numbers, etc). That was really knocked back when he played Yao Ming numbers of games after signing with Orlando.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by JasonL » 03 Apr 2012, 10:37

So, from my seat here in Big Blue Nation, it appears the right team won. I weep when I imagine what that same team would look like next year if Davis would stay to put on some weight and get some more post moves and Kidd-Gilchrest could mature a bit and learn to use screens better and shoot in rhythm and Teague would be not a freshman point guard. They would be horrifying to face. They were good enough this year that everyone else had to be at 100% just to be in the game. Sigh.

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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 20 Jan 2013, 12:23

Butler and Gonzaga put on the best show I've seen this season. What a finish!
Also something must be done about Boeheim before he blots out the sun.
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Re: MARCH MADNESS

Post by Warren » 10 Feb 2013, 00:12

ND vs Louisville. For the first 38 minutes of the game I couldn't wait for it to be over, and now I don't know if it will ever end.
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