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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 09 Apr 2018, 15:42

Oh come on Jennifer. I’m in the airport. If you are telling me you think the use of white supremacy by Coates and Cornell West and their supporters are just hyperbole you are delusional.

Trump supporters white supremacists:

White supremacy: https://www.salon.com/2017/09/17/stop-a ... premacist/

Broaden the term white supremacy: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... cy/542148/

STFU white supremacists : https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/f ... ncna832246


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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 09 Apr 2018, 15:44

Lady- if they thought they could get away with it they would make the law of the land that gun owners get imprisoned or shot in the effort to make that happen. That’s literally the law they want.

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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 09 Apr 2018, 15:49

But this quibbling over "Just how many American women would be executed if Williamson's preferences were made law, anyway" and "is Coates' fear of state agents who can kill him actually the moral equivalent to Williamson's argument that state agents should kill certain women" is in a way missing the point: we all agree (no doubt) that Williamson has the first amendment right to believe a he does -- if the government tried to fine or arrest him for what he said I'd be the first one crying foul -- the question is, are there any ideas wretched enough that a media outlet is justified in saying "That alone makes you not want to write for us anymore?" The National Review clearly believes some ideas are wretched enough to qualify -- they fired Derbyshire for some racist stuff he wrote for another website, and before that they fired Ann Coulter for responding to 9/11 by saying Muslims should be forcibly converted to Christianity -- but clearly they do not think Williamson's desire to make abortion a hanging offense qualifies.

But where is the line, exactly, separating "ideas worthy of debate and discussion" versus "ideas which can be dismissed out of hand?" Can science magazines dismiss submitted articles pushing the "Earth is 6,000 years old" theory? Can political magazines refuse to hire writers who think all current economic problems are due to "Jews control the banks," or at they being closed-minded? Where do you draw the line?
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 09 Apr 2018, 15:55

I think it’s fine to fire Williamson as a business matter, I just think the rags that publish other inflammatory voices are drawing politically expedient not principled lines when they do such things. Again, totally their call.

I also have no problem with some one else hiring the dude. I’m close to absolutist on marketplace of ideas.

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nicole
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Re: Twitter!

Post by nicole » 09 Apr 2018, 16:04

Jennifer wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:37
nicole wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:32

There's just not any plausible interpretation that he was talking about ex post punishments, and he's clearly on record as being anti-death-penalty.
I know he's not calling for ex post facto laws -- I said as much either upthread here, or on the other Williamson thread -- but he does indeed want that to be the law going forward. Going back to my example of the difference between "gun owners are terrorists" (which could be dismissed as rhetoric) versus "gun owners should be hanged by the neck until dead -- no, I mean it" -- no, it's not an ex post facto law, this person "merely" is calling to confiscate all guns today and execute anyone who hasn't turned in their guns by next week -- in such an instance, I'd still have no problem saying "That person wants to execute huge numbers of fellow Americans."
He also doesn't want the death penalty at all though.
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 09 Apr 2018, 16:10

JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:44
Lady- if they thought they could get away with it they would make the law of the land that gun owners get imprisoned or shot in the effort to make that happen. That’s literally the law they want.
Can you give me a quote from a professional left-wing pundit saying this? (FWIW, I have indeed met people on Facebook et al who make such arguments -- but they're not professional pundits.)
JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:42
Oh come on Jennifer. I’m in the airport. If you are telling me you think the use of white supremacy by Coates and Cornell West and their supporters are just hyperbole you are delusional.

Trump supporters white supremacists:

White supremacy: https://www.salon.com/2017/09/17/stop-a ... premacist/

Broaden the term white supremacy: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... cy/542148/

STFU white supremacists : https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/f ... ncna832246
Re-read my previous comment more carefully -- I asked if the "slave drivers" comment you alluded to might be hyperbole. Since I have not seen the exact quote and you have not provided it nor the name of the writer who produced it, I cannot say for certain one way or the other. But this is exactly what I did say:
Who made the specific "slave drivers" comment you alluded to here -- and for that matter, was it meant literally, or is this another example of your inability to understand "hyperbole" as a rhetorical device?
As for the links you provided -- let's see, there's an NPR article about Coates saying "Trump's ideology is white supremacy"; a Salon article saying Trump is a white supremacist, offering as evidence some genuinely racist things he's said and various openly racist people he's surrounded himself with; and an Atlantic article building on the theme "Yeah, white supremacy has much to do with Trump's support." And THESE are what you offer as evidence of something as bad as Williamson's call for hanging women who have abortions?

At least your NBC news article suggesting that the first amendment stop covering "hate speech" qualifies as an actual left-wing call to take certain rights away from various Americans they disagree with -- but even they are not suggesting that "hate speech" be made a death-penalty offense.

By the way, who DID make that "slave drivers" comment you complained about upthread as evidence of left-wing equivalence to Williamson? Can you give me the specific name and quote (as opposed to "Here's four links to articles which might or might not prove my point--I can't give you specifics, I just know today's left is as toxic as the right. And I am so secure in my knowledge, that when asked for specific examples I will instead sneer that you are delusional ")?

Or, do you think you've already given examples of left-wingers being just as awful as Williamson -- Williamson says women who get abortions should be hanged, you linked to THREE DIFFERENT LEFT-WINGERS who called Donald Trump a racist -- so, the two sides are pretty much the same?
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 09 Apr 2018, 16:13

nicole wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 16:04
Jennifer wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:37
nicole wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 15:32

There's just not any plausible interpretation that he was talking about ex post punishments, and he's clearly on record as being anti-death-penalty.
I know he's not calling for ex post facto laws -- I said as much either upthread here, or on the other Williamson thread -- but he does indeed want that to be the law going forward. Going back to my example of the difference between "gun owners are terrorists" (which could be dismissed as rhetoric) versus "gun owners should be hanged by the neck until dead -- no, I mean it" -- no, it's not an ex post facto law, this person "merely" is calling to confiscate all guns today and execute anyone who hasn't turned in their guns by next week -- in such an instance, I'd still have no problem saying "That person wants to execute huge numbers of fellow Americans."
He also doesn't want the death penalty at all though.
But he'd gladly see women tried for homicide in a death-penalty legal system. (And besides, if he replaced "women who get abortions should be hanged" with "women who get abortions should be imprisoned for murder," I suspect the Atlantic might still have let him go -- I at least have no problem with saying "THAT attitude is fine for the right-wing anti-abortion rags, but a liberal-leaning magazine is perfectly justified in not wanting to keep such a person on payroll.")
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 09 Apr 2018, 17:19

I see very little difference between (Rtfa) the republican coalition including trump are white supremacists, gun owners and the NRA are terrorists, and women who get abortions are murderers.

I picked 3 on purpose to illustrate not a lone kook dropping the white nationalist thing.

The degree to which people advocate for a gun free America by law - WTF do you think that means? It means ownership illegal - accede to the ban, get imprisoned or get shot.

I have not been able to find the slave owner / slave driver reference that I thought was one of the 5thC “some idiot wrote this” bits over the past year. I’ll pull it.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 09 Apr 2018, 17:25

JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:19
I see very little difference between (Rtfa) the republican coalition including trump are white supremacists, gun owners and the NRA are terrorists, and women who get abortions are murderers.

I picked 3 on purpose to illustrate not a lone kook dropping the white nationalist thing.

The degree to which people advocate for a gun free America by law - WTF do you think that means? It means ownership illegal - accede to the ban, get imprisoned or get shot.

I have not been able to find the slave owner / slave driver reference that I thought was one of the 5thC “some idiot wrote this” bits over the past year. I’ll pull it.
Or they could just treat it like they do middle class white people and drugs and let it slide with confiscation and just make the sale, manufacture, and importation illegal so any kind of black market prices go through the roof.

Hell, they could just fine, garnish wages, and shred credit for non-compliance.

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Mo
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Mo » 09 Apr 2018, 17:31

I don’t get the reference to the Hillsdale speech as exculpatory. It basically backs up Jeffrey Goldberg’s statement that Kevin lied about it. He claims the only source for him saying that was LGF, not his own Twitter feed or his National Review podcast. If I’m Goldberg, the lying about it is worse than saying it.
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 09 Apr 2018, 17:39

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:19
I see very little difference between (Rtfa) the republican coalition including trump are white supremacists, gun owners and the NRA are terrorists, and women who get abortions are murderers.

I picked 3 on purpose to illustrate not a lone kook dropping the white nationalist thing.

The degree to which people advocate for a gun free America by law - WTF do you think that means? It means ownership illegal - accede to the ban, get imprisoned or get shot.

I have not been able to find the slave owner / slave driver reference that I thought was one of the 5thC “some idiot wrote this” bits over the past year. I’ll pull it.
Or they could just treat it like they do middle class white people and drugs and let it slide with confiscation and just make the sale, manufacture, and importation illegal so any kind of black market prices go through the roof.

Hell, they could just fine, garnish wages, and shred credit for non-compliance.
Offs - But the policy would be ownership is a felony and lots of poor people would get raided and shot, yes?

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 09 Apr 2018, 17:42

JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:39
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:19
I see very little difference between (Rtfa) the republican coalition including trump are white supremacists, gun owners and the NRA are terrorists, and women who get abortions are murderers.

I picked 3 on purpose to illustrate not a lone kook dropping the white nationalist thing.

The degree to which people advocate for a gun free America by law - WTF do you think that means? It means ownership illegal - accede to the ban, get imprisoned or get shot.

I have not been able to find the slave owner / slave driver reference that I thought was one of the 5thC “some idiot wrote this” bits over the past year. I’ll pull it.
Or they could just treat it like they do middle class white people and drugs and let it slide with confiscation and just make the sale, manufacture, and importation illegal so any kind of black market prices go through the roof.

Hell, they could just fine, garnish wages, and shred credit for non-compliance.
Offs - But the policy would be ownership is a felony and lots of poor people would get raided and shot, yes?
Maybe.

You could even do it easier and just let metal fatigue take it's toll. Ownership or possession could just be a nice $500 civil infraction and forfeiture. Like a really bad parking ticket.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 09 Apr 2018, 17:44

Really, this is why a lot of people think libertarians are just Reds who admit to smoking pot—so many of us will go to the mattresses to defend a fuckwit Red, while any serious point of disagreement with a Blue puts them beyond the pale.

Yes, the whole use of "white supremacy" by the left-of-center is an infuriating PITA. It's doublespeak and the very deliberate use of a term that previously connoted "Nazi/KKK shit" to mean "systemic and institutional, no matter how terribly subtle, racism". Blabbering about it is still not saying, Hey, if we insist on killing murders, we should hang those abortion-getting sluts, too. And bluntly, Coates doesn't say anything in that NPR interview that seems unreasonable. How is he wrong in saying white people being able to shrug off a candidate's overt racism and vote for him anyway is a problem? Hell, about the only thing he said I don't basically agree with is arguing Trump's election as a reaction to Obama's presidency. I'm certain that if Obama had been running in 2016, he would have rofl-stomped Trump.

Yes, a lot of Blues want guns to be illegal. The vast majority of them don't want gun owners massacred or imprisoned, they want them to obey an updated law of the land and hand over their guns once they're banned. (Which they totally aren't planning to take, but that's a particular line of bullshit from them and a separate issue.) That banning something means that people will suffer and die, that The Government can't wave a wand and make it so, is an issue that many Blues can't wrap their minds around. (Doubly so since marijuana liberalization has made most Blues stop caring about the drug war.) Even that asshole candidate that someone linked a video to the other week framed his assholery in the context of If someone's going to escalate to lethal force to keep their guns once they're banned, well, we'll win that fight.
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 09 Apr 2018, 17:56

If we fail to maintain perfect left-right symmetry then our political movement will decay into a bunch of betas.

#CPviolation #PhysicsJokes #HorribleOffensiveGeekery
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 09 Apr 2018, 17:58

thoreau wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:56
If we fail to maintain perfect left-right symmetry then our political movement will decay into a bunch of betas.

#CPviolation #PhysicsJokes #HorribleOffensiveGeekery
Good tags. I'm tired of the usual Trumpkin use of "beta".
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 09 Apr 2018, 18:01

Insert-joke-about-Majorana-particles-here.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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nicole
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Re: Twitter!

Post by nicole » 09 Apr 2018, 18:40

Mo wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:31
I don’t get the reference to the Hillsdale speech as exculpatory. It basically backs up Jeffrey Goldberg’s statement that Kevin lied about it. He claims the only source for him saying that was LGF, not his own Twitter feed or his National Review podcast. If I’m Goldberg, the lying about it is worse than saying it.
Yeah 100% agree about that. When I first heard he was fired I was like...so he uh totally lied to his boss eh...
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 09 Apr 2018, 18:44

JasonL wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:19
I see very little difference between (Rtfa) the republican coalition including trump are white supremacists, gun owners and the NRA are terrorists, and women who get abortions are murderers.
Do you see any difference between "women who get abortions are murderers" and "women who get abortions should actually be hanged as murderers -- not as an ex post facto law, but certainly going forward form here"?

If not, do you at least understand that most people DO see a distinction -- including a lot of "abortion is murder" types who nonetheless were horrified by Williamson's comment?
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 09 Apr 2018, 19:05

Eric the .5b wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:44
That banning something means that people will suffer and die, that The Government can't wave a wand and make it so, is an issue that many Blues can't wrap their minds around.
To be fair, a lot of Reds can't either. Remember the "medical marijuana should remain illegal" legislator who got pissed off when I asked her how long a certain pot-smoking paraplegic professor should go to prison? She was a Republican. Or, for that matter, all the many, many "abortion is murder" types who still were horrified by Williamson's comments. It is not, strictly speaking, "hypocrisy" which makes people shy away from the ultimate implications of what they claim to want -- just as it isn't disingenuous or delusional to assure Jason that repeated references to "NRA terrorists" still aren't the same thing as "explicit calls for the state to execute members of the NRA."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 10 Apr 2018, 02:41

Jennifer wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 19:05
Eric the .5b wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 17:44
That banning something means that people will suffer and die, that The Government can't wave a wand and make it so, is an issue that many Blues can't wrap their minds around.
To be fair, a lot of Reds can't either.
Sure. But I wasn't talking about them, then.

In my experience, though, Reds are more likely than Blues to believe policies they want will hurt some people and approve of that.
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Mo
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Mo » 10 Apr 2018, 03:13

When the POTUS’ attorney gets raided by the FBI, Tucker has the real hard hitting news.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 10 Apr 2018, 08:08

I don’t believe in 100% symmetry, but picking on an abortion stance doesn’t make any kind of point because those people think abortion is murder. Have always thought. Is nothing new. The scale is set so expressing that core belief is extreme in a way that no arbitrarily retarded lefty view is seen as extreme.

The lefty retardation gets an excuses machine built in that allows them to say whatever the fuck they want because of some combination of they are too stupid to know it’s harmful or punching up is always ok, or whatever. I find that tiresome.

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Warren
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Warren » 10 Apr 2018, 09:57

JasonL wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 08:08
I don’t believe in 100% symmetry, but picking on an abortion stance doesn’t make any kind of point because those people think abortion is murder. Have always thought. Is nothing new. The scale is set so expressing that core belief is extreme in a way that no arbitrarily retarded lefty view is seen as extreme.

The lefty retardation gets an excuses machine built in that allows them to say whatever the fuck they want because of some combination of they are too stupid to know it’s harmful or punching up is always ok, or whatever. I find that tiresome.
I've moved it up from tiresome to concerning.
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nicole
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Re: Twitter!

Post by nicole » 10 Apr 2018, 10:15

Here's a great example of offensive lefty shit written by the EIC of a blog at The Root and columnist for GQ: https://verysmartbrothas .theroot.com/20-words-and-phrases-white-people-shouldnt-be-allowed-t-1825104474
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Warren
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Warren » 10 Apr 2018, 10:54

nicole wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 10:15
Here's a great example of offensive lefty shit written by the EIC of a blog at The Root and columnist for GQ: https://verysmartbrothas .theroot.com/20-words-and-phrases-white-people-shouldnt-be-allowed-t-1825104474
Huh? I mean surely that's humor. Getting all "'offended'" at humor is part of the problem with the current state of public discourse.
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