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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 01:18

FWIW, Jason, I can sympathize and (to a very limited degree) even empathize with you a bit, at least regarding some of your frustration here -- humanity and the world overall would indeed be a better place (hopefully) if everybody saw, accepted and embraced the full implications of what they say or think they want. That long-ago (10 years) Connecticut state legislator, who wanted to keep medical marijuana illegal, and was sincerely offended when I asked her point-blank how long she thought that paraplegic college professor should go to prison -- her outrage and offense wasn't feigned, and it was not unique. Nor are abortion opponents (for the most part) feigning their outrage, when you say outright "At best, you are calling for the state to take away rights from pregnant women."

Now, granted, it seems pretty damned obvious is you think about it for more than .0002 seconds -- if you want the state to prevent pregnant women from ending their pregnancies if they wish, that's going to lead to the state doing some very unpleasant things. And if you say "abortion is murder," well, we all agree "murder" should be illegal and "murder" should get you imprisoned (or worse) -- and because you, Jason, are generally logical and intelligent, and do think through implications of things, it is super-obvious to you that anyone who says "Abortion is murder" should naturally support prosecuting women who get abortions as murderers, and also their doctors and their friend who drives them to the abortion clinic. And thus you are flummoxed when someone who says "Abortion is murder" is nonetheless appalled by the suggestion that women be tried as murderers. And also, when you hear someone talk about "Those NRA terrorists and gun owners think their guns matter more than innocent children's lives," you genuinely hear that as "We're coming for you, Jason, and all your second-amendment supporting friends too."

But here's the thing you need to understand at least intellectually, even if you never truly feel it -- the overwhelming majority of people who say "Abortion is murder" do not actually want to prosecute women for murder. The majority of people who say "medical marijuana should remain illegal" nonetheless are sincerely horrified when you respond "Fine, then -- how long do you want this 19-year-old cancer patient to spend in prison?" Because the majority of people, even intelligent people, shy away from the implications of what they say they want.

That said: if you, Jason, continue to deny this, or argue why people shouldn't be this way because it's illogical and other reasons -- you will continue to be the equivalent of the colorblind guy who keeps derailing other people's conversations about different colors by insisting they're actually the same.
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Tuco
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Tuco » 13 Apr 2018, 07:02

Ellie wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 21:00
So wait, are you trying to decide whether it should be a liberal or conservative professional jerk who's going to decorate your home, or who's going to adorn your body? Because I gotta say, the liberals probably win for interior decorating, but the conservatives are the sharp dressers.

</kidding>
It's the insights like these that keep me coming back here.

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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 13 Apr 2018, 09:11

Jennifer - broadly I think what you are doing there is building a mechanism that allows you to selectively apply generous definitions to statements you find less offensive and strict definitions to statements you hate. I think you just made up the idea that someone who says abortion is murder isn’t really saying those who do it are murderers. I think it’s very clear what they mean, just as I think it’s clear what people supporting confiscation mean. Many people will totally move the goalposts or do motte and bailey if they think they sound too extreme, but end of day using force of law to stop a thing is exactly what they want.

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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 09:15

JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 09:11
Jennifer - broadly I think what you are doing there is building a mechanism that allows you to selectively apply generous definitions to statements you find less offensive and strict definitions to statements you hate. I think you just made up the idea that someone who says abortion is murder isn’t really saying those who do it are murderers.
Then why do you think so many people who say "Abortion is murder" nonetheless backed away in horror from the likes of Williamson's statements? I hope you don't think I made that up too. Or, why do you think that "Keep medical marijuana illegal" legislator was so appalled when I asked her point-blank how long a certain medical MJ user should spend in prison?
JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 09:11
end of day using force of law to stop a thing is exactly what they want.
Yes, but the majority of them have not and do not think through the implications of what that means -- which is why the "abortion is murder" types shy away from Williamson, and why the "keep marijuana illegal even as medicine" types shy away from the question "how long should this-here sick MJ smoker go to prison?" As I said already: I sympathize and even empathize with your frustration here, but you need to accept this intellectually even if you can't actually "feel" it: most people do NOT think through the implications of what they say they want.
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 13 Apr 2018, 10:40

So, I'll give you my own version of this. My truth serum answer to a pointed question about gun violence in america is "it's a totally acceptable risk net of everything - I don't think we should do anything at all". If I'm asked how many children have to die for me to change my mind, and in particular if I'm in a public space, I'd probably deflect that or try to reframe it in some way that I think sounds better than the truth which is "kids die of stuff all the time, why don't we make cars illegal or swimming pools". It is what I think, but it's not an allowable thing to say to most ears, so I punt.

The fact that I punt doesn't mean I don't really feel that way though.

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nicole
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Re: Twitter!

Post by nicole » 13 Apr 2018, 11:01

And, again, it just goes back to what any of us consider more vs. less obnoxious. I'm far, far more bothered by the people who don't think through the implications of their position. They're more dangerous and cause more suffering in the world; I said a long time ago in the change tracking thread that I'm not at all sure stupidity is any less bad than evil. Just because some thoughtless idiot didn't consider what it would mean to put more onerous regulations on abortion doesn't change anything about what those regulations might mean: that a pregnant woman will have to risk her life on someone's kitchen table or simply kill herself to avoid giving birth. I'd much rather have someone like KDW put my death right out there, than the people who think it's just going to be puppies and rainbows and I mean either you just won't get pregnant or the kid will be born! It's a life-or-death issue and pretending it isn't is actually worse for me. Nice, friendly idiots are a huge part of what's wrong with the world.
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 13:51

JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 10:40
So, I'll give you my own version of this. My truth serum answer to a pointed question about gun violence in america is "it's a totally acceptable risk net of everything - I don't think we should do anything at all". If I'm asked how many children have to die for me to change my mind, and in particular if I'm in a public space, I'd probably deflect that or try to reframe it in some way that I think sounds better than the truth which is "kids die of stuff all the time, why don't we make cars illegal or swimming pools". It is what I think, but it's not an allowable thing to say to most ears, so I punt.

The fact that I punt doesn't mean I don't really feel that way though.
So for those "abortion is murder" people who are horrified by Williamson's suggestion -- do you think they are lying when they say "I believe abortion is murder" or when they say "But I do NOT want to see women tried as murderers?" And that Connecticut state legislator who refused to say how long a pot-smoking paraplegic should go to prison -- do you think was she lying about wanting MJ to stay illegal, or about being horrified at the thought of actual real-life non-hypothetical medical marijuana smokers going to prison?
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 14:46

nicole wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 11:01
And, again, it just goes back to what any of us consider more vs. less obnoxious. I'm far, far more bothered by the people who don't think through the implications of their position. They're more dangerous and cause more suffering in the world
For what it's worth I am inclined to agree with this; it's just that, contra Jason, I also understand that the overwhelming majority of the human race does not think in what we'd consider the "right" or "proper" way. And acknowledging this fact, and working with it, is a better strategy that stubbornly insisting human nature is something completely different from what it is. Sadly, for the most part people are not going to sit down and carefully consider all implications and ramifications of what they say they want, to the point of embracing Orwellian doublethink when confronted by it.

That long-ago alt-weekly article I keep referring to, about a medical marijuana bill then being debated in Connecticut -- the only reason it was considered such an "OMG" gotcha-type question for me to ask is precisely because so few people think through the implications of things. Most of the "keep MJ illegal, even as medicine" people don't think about the implications of what they say they want -- and they really are horrified when you point to a specific, real-life person who will suffer as a result. Most "abortion is murder" people really HAVEN'T thought as far ahead as "Okay, so, having said that, what do we do when women continue to get them?" (And most "abortion should be illegal even for rape victims" folks are nonetheless sincerely horrified by the inevitable news stories a la "14-year-old rape victim dies in forced childbirth" -- yeah, they "shouldn't" be surprised, they wouldn't be surprised if they thought through the evil implications of their "Let's force women to stay pregnant, and to hell with what they think about it" proposals -- to the point where they even get huffy if you call it ""Let's force women to stay pregnant, and to hell with what they think about it.")

Despite Jason's theory that the majority of adults lie the majority of the time about the majority of their deepest-held political beliefs, the truth is that the majority of people don't think through the implications of their positions -- which is very different from "I've thought about the implications, and I like them, but I'm too much of a coward to say so in public."
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 13 Apr 2018, 15:16

So you pointed it out and she changed her mind right? If so good for you but that’s like .000000001% of cases. The excuse machine kicks in and it all becomes okay - something I choose not to think about. And that’s where most people are. They choose to ignore rather than being completely ignorant.

That expression is not usually “I never thought of that!” it’s “you are stressing my narrative that makes me a good guy by reminding me of things I ignore out of habit.”

I’m harsher than Nicole in some ways. The discomfort is not with well meaning stupid people - it’s with a great body of people who pretend not to know basic implications. I’m not talking amazing feats of convoluted reasoning here. I’m saying liberal person knows people will go to jail when they say something should be illegal but they hate to talk about it because they are nice unlike those other people. We let liberals do this but do not let conservatives do it. They don’t deserve anything like the gymnastics you are doing on their behalf.

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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 15:38

JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 15:16
So you pointed it out and she changed her mind right?
Nope -- at least regarding that legislator, last I checked she still thinks MJ should be illegal in all its forms. Yet I'm sure she'd be equally horrified if you pointed out certain sympathetic people using medical marijuana and asking her "How long do you think this person should spend in prison, then?" And the sad thing is, this doesn't make her exceptional or unique. This is a sadly commonplace failing among humans.
If so good for you but that’s like .000000001% of cases. The excuse machine kicks in and it all becomes okay - something I choose not to think about. And that’s where most people are. They choose to ignore rather than being completely ignorant.

That expression is not usually “I never thought of that!” it’s “you are stressing my narrative that makes me a good guy by reminding me of things I ignore out of habit.”
Yeah, the human mind is chockful of frustrating and illogical mechanisms like that. Psychologists, philosophers and other observers of the human condition have been listing them for awhile now: "denial," "projection," "doublethink," "coping mechanisms," etc. Not to mention, you're of above-average intellect (as are all of us posting at this august forum, ahem), but by definition most people are not, so you also have to account for that.
I’m harsher than Nicole in some ways. The discomfort is not with well meaning stupid people - it’s with a great body of people who pretend not to know basic implications. I’m not talking amazing feats of convoluted reasoning here. I’m saying liberal person knows people will go to jail when they say something should be illegal but they hate to talk about it because they are nice unlike those other people. We let liberals do this but do not let conservatives do it.
That is not true -- liberals and conservatives are both allowed to promote ideas without thinking through the implications. There are, for example, plenty of conservatives who say they want to outlaw abortion and even use the m-word to describe it -- but they do NOT call for women to be tried for murder, and thus they do not face the shit Williamson did.

Eric already pointed out upthread, and I've paraphrased the same thought at least once, the difference between "people who didn't think about the harmful implications of what they want" versus "people who openly call for those harmful outcomes." There's a big difference between "I don't want this to hurt anybody" versus "Hell yeah, I want this to hurt people." You keep arguing that this distinction is illogical and dishonest and people have no damned business saying "I don't want to hurt anybody" while promoting laws that will hurt people ... but once again, you are confusing "ought" and "is" statements.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Apr 2018, 16:13

JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 09:11
Jennifer - broadly I think what you are doing there is building a mechanism that allows you to selectively apply generous definitions to statements you find less offensive and strict definitions to statements you hate. I think you just made up the idea that someone who says abortion is murder isn’t really saying those who do it are murderers. I think it’s very clear what they mean,
*facepalm*

Which is why, back when abortion was illegal, women who got them received the death penalty when caught and convicted.

Or, no, wait, they were at least charged with murder?

Or, no, wait, manslaughter...?

Seriously, there's one person completely ignoring reality and making shit up in this conversation, and it isn't Jennifer.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 13 Apr 2018, 16:16

Enough abortion. When do we get to grammar? Or condiments?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Apr 2018, 17:05

thoreau wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 16:16
Enough abortion. When do we get to grammar? Or condiments?
Prescriptive or descriptive mayonnaise?
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 13 Apr 2018, 17:21

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 17:05
thoreau wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 16:16
Enough abortion. When do we get to grammar? Or condiments?
Prescriptive or descriptive mayonnaise?
I suspect my doctor would prescribe that I only eat low-fat mayo.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 13 Apr 2018, 17:21

Now, shall we get our protein from aborted fetuses, or from prisoners executed for aborting fetuses?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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lunchstealer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Apr 2018, 17:54

thoreau wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 17:21
Now, shall we get our protein from aborted fetuses, or from prisoners executed for aborting fetuses?
Image
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 13 Apr 2018, 22:12

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 16:13
JasonL wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 09:11
Jennifer - broadly I think what you are doing there is building a mechanism that allows you to selectively apply generous definitions to statements you find less offensive and strict definitions to statements you hate. I think you just made up the idea that someone who says abortion is murder isn’t really saying those who do it are murderers. I think it’s very clear what they mean,
*facepalm*

Which is why, back when abortion was illegal, women who got them received the death penalty when caught and convicted.

Or, no, wait, they were at least charged with murder?

Or, no, wait, manslaughter...?

Seriously, there's one person completely ignoring reality and making shit up in this conversation, and it isn't Jennifer.
As one of those rare people who does think through the implications of things, I'm actually kind of flattered by the immense power I presumably have, per Jason's comment. This whole thing about "People rarely think through the implications of what they say they want, which is how you get 'medical marijuana should stay illegal' legislators who sincerely feel attacked when you ask them how long a certain sick pot smoker should go to prison, and also how you get people who say 'abortion is murder' yet are sincerely horrified when you suggest hauling women and girls in on murder charges" .... all this time I thought this reluctance to think through the implications of things was a regrettably common failing of human nature, yet turns out it only even exists because I invented it in hope of winning a web-forum argument! Until two days ago, this flaw in human nature literally DID NOT EXIST!

... if Jason is correct in saying I "just made up the idea that someone who says abortion is murder isn’t really saying those who do it are murderers," that is. Otherwise, this-all is just crazy talk.
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JasonL
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Re: Twitter!

Post by JasonL » 14 Apr 2018, 21:09

I’m saying a retarded 9 year old could handle “X is murder. A person does X, they are A - a banana, B- a jar of mayo, C- a murderer ...

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Apr 2018, 23:05

JasonL wrote:
14 Apr 2018, 21:09
I’m saying a retarded 9 year old could handle “X is murder. A person does X, they are A - a banana, B- a jar of mayo, C- a murderer ...
And if you take 99% of abortion opponents and see them refuse to readily agree that women who get abortions are murderers in any consequential way (deserving punishment for murder, etc.), could that nine-year-old possibly work that logic backwards to a conclusion?
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Pham Nuwen » 15 Apr 2018, 00:37

For crying out loud!

Can't we just agree people are awful and say one thing and mean another? Further that people, at least in my experience, are wildly inconsistent? And that it's nigh impossible to really figure out what people mean at the heart of a matter that one has not experienced personally? I was a teenager when the school shooting shit went down in Pearl County Mississippi. You know what I felt? Not a goddamn thing.

Honestly. It's like I'm taking crazy pills!
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Jennifer
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Jennifer » 15 Apr 2018, 15:01

Pham Nuwen wrote:
15 Apr 2018, 00:37
For crying out loud!

Can't we just agree people are awful and say one thing and mean another? Further that people, at least in my experience, are wildly inconsistent? And that it's nigh impossible to really figure out what people mean at the heart of a matter that one has not experienced personally? I was a teenager when the school shooting shit went down in Pearl County Mississippi. You know what I felt? Not a goddamn thing.
For Jason, I think it would be easier to agree that I, Jennifer, simply made all this shit up. People who say "abortion is murder" yet shy away from actually prosecuting women and girls as murderers? Despite what the Kevin Williamson controversy would lead one to believe, such people do not actually exist, you see; I just made them up. (Also, the idea that critical thinking -- such as thinking through the full implications of things -- does not come naturally to most people but must be practiced or taught is also nonsense, according to Jason: everybody who says "I want X" has fully and critically thought through all implications of what they say they want, and only some dishonest hyperbolist would disagree.)

Since "people who don't think through the implications of what they say they want" apparently don't exist in Jason's world, I'm guessing "cognitive dissonance" does not exist either.
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nicole
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Re: Twitter!

Post by nicole » 16 Apr 2018, 12:55

"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Apr 2018, 13:01

The stage when Coca-Cola markets to dumb socialists?

But that's any stage.
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 16 Apr 2018, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
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thoreau
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Re: Twitter!

Post by thoreau » 16 Apr 2018, 13:02

Faux-Woke Capitalism is enough to make me want to vote for Bernie.

Somebody call an ambulance for Jason.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Twitter!

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Apr 2018, 13:05

thoreau wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 13:02
Faux-Woke Capitalism is enough to make me want to vote for Bernie.
Eh. Some peoples' money needs to be redistributed, via completely voluntary exchange, away from them. That's how I see empty puffery rhetoric like that on a product.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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