Portable Techno-Capitalism

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Highway
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Highway » 07 Sep 2016, 20:36

The claim of "32-40 milliseconds (HUMAN EAR UNDECTECTABLE)" is complete BS. It's certainly detectable, and it's not your ears, it's your eyes and your ears together.

Now, one thing that is known is that people are very willing to accept that there is a delay on hearing sounds of quite a large amount without thinking it's out of sync. You just feel like it's farther away. The big problem with lip sync issues that happened when HDTVs first came out was that the use of home theater systems exposed the amount of picture delay that the video portion had, much more than CRTs did, thanks to picture processing. This ended up putting the sound before the picture, and very very small amounts, like 10 ms, were enough to make people feel oogy and that it was 'wrong'.

And I would imagine that 'low latency' on just one side is not really something that will fix everything. If you have a low latency BT transmitter in your phone, then cool, it'll work if the headphones have low latency too. But it's something that just adds up. It's not like headphones are going to erase latency from the transmitter.
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Painboy
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Painboy » 07 Sep 2016, 21:39

Highway wrote:The claim of "32-40 milliseconds (HUMAN EAR UNDECTECTABLE)" is complete BS. It's certainly detectable, and it's not your ears, it's your eyes and your ears together.

Now, one thing that is known is that people are very willing to accept that there is a delay on hearing sounds of quite a large amount without thinking it's out of sync. You just feel like it's farther away. The big problem with lip sync issues that happened when HDTVs first came out was that the use of home theater systems exposed the amount of picture delay that the video portion had, much more than CRTs did, thanks to picture processing. This ended up putting the sound before the picture, and very very small amounts, like 10 ms, were enough to make people feel oogy and that it was 'wrong'.

And I would imagine that 'low latency' on just one side is not really something that will fix everything. If you have a low latency BT transmitter in your phone, then cool, it'll work if the headphones have low latency too. But it's something that just adds up. It's not like headphones are going to erase latency from the transmitter.
Well he was talking about watching TV on his iPad. Is there some way for him to delay the picture slightly to help sync up the sound? Despite using them day in and out I'm not actually that knowledgeable on a lot of their capabilities.

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Mo
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Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 07 Sep 2016, 22:47

I don't get the logic of "headphone jacks are old, so they must be eliminated". Apple uses glass, which is literally thousands of years older than a headphone jack, instead of the much newer plastic. If the headphone jack is a dinosaur, glass is a Cnidarian.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Sep 2016, 23:35

Mo wrote:I don't get the logic of "headphone jacks are old, so they must be eliminated". Apple uses glass, which is literally thousands of years older than a headphone jack, instead of the much newer plastic. If the headphone jack is a dinosaur, glass is a Cnidarian.
But glass is cool and wires are passe. Said the final design decision guy at Apple.

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Sep 2016, 23:35

Also, all those wired Beats headsets are now obsolete.

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 07 Sep 2016, 23:54

Mo wrote:I don't get the logic of "headphone jacks are old, so they must be eliminated". Apple uses glass, which is literally thousands of years older than a headphone jack, instead of the much newer plastic. If the headphone jack is a dinosaur, glass is a Cnidarian.
a) You might want to look into the glass used by phones these days. It's not even tens-of-years-old technology.
b) If you have a single-use port with no real upgrade path and limited space, eliminating it for a multi-use port seems reasonable. Trying to make an 1/8" port that handles power, data, and analog audio in a way that's backwards-compatible with current analog headphones seems unlikely to succeed. The glass is only competing with other transparent solid technologies. It's also doing double-duty as an input device.

My only problem is using a proprietary port instead of USB-C. OTOH, I don't know the specs of USB-C well enough to know if it's feasible, but I assume it would be.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by dbcooper » 08 Sep 2016, 00:04

I like plugging my headphones into the bottom of my phone, so that I bend the port, and the device is more difficult to use. TWO ports would be just far too many.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2016, 00:07

Gorilla Glass dates back to the 60s. The thing that's odd is they used some of that space for stereo speakers, which makes no sense when they're that close together and where speakers are seldom used. If space is at such a premium, this seems like a big waste of space. Also, unlike eliminating the floppy, Ethernet or DVD, there's no widely used, good enough/better alternative. Bluetooth audio largely sucks and Lightning headphones are rare in the wild.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Hugh Akston » 08 Sep 2016, 01:49

Mo wrote:Lightning headphones are rare in the wild.
Not for long
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Highway
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Highway » 08 Sep 2016, 07:47

Stereo speakers are definitely an idiotic thing on a phone. So instead of one shitty speaker you don't want to use, you get two shitty speakers you don't want to use! Plus the whole "what kind of asshole is playing music from his phone speaker?" thing.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by dhex » 08 Sep 2016, 08:38

it's good for watching netflix on your phone tho.

also, i think of apple like a guy who trains dogs for a living. a bit lonely, more wealthy than you would think, but also exactly the kind of dick who builds their life around making animals do tricks.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 09:57

Mo wrote:Gorilla Glass dates back to the 60s.
Gorilla glass has not remained the same this whole time. The various coatings, etc. have appeared within the last 10 years.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2016, 10:04

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:Gorilla Glass dates back to the 60s.
Gorilla glass has not remained the same this whole time. The various coatings, etc. have appeared within the last 10 years.
The 3.5 mm jack hasn't remained the same either. TRRS is about two decades old and TRRRS is only a few years old.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 10:58

Mo wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:Gorilla Glass dates back to the 60s.
Gorilla glass has not remained the same this whole time. The various coatings, etc. have appeared within the last 10 years.
The 3.5 mm jack hasn't remained the same either. TRRS is about two decades old and TRRRS is only a few years old.
So do any of the plastics have the same weight and scratch resistance? Can they do dual-duty with anything else?

So purely "it's old" isn't a great argument, but being multiuse is a fair point.

Now, the speaker is a fair counterpoint, but I have seen use cases for that--a neighbor tried to set up her phone as a boombox for an outdoor party (and failed, because the speakers needed separate power that didn't come through the 3.5mm jack).

At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me. The best argument I've heard against it is the inability to use wired headphones and charge the thing at the same time. Dunno if lightning supports splitting.

Anyway, now people accept that USB replacing ADB and losing the floppy is acceptable, but at the time, I heard more or less the same "muh legacy" arguments, and I suspect once again other manufacturers will follow suit. It was just crappy of Apple not to do what they did with USB and switch to USB-C so they could reassure that non-Apple products could use the headphones, etc.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by JD » 08 Sep 2016, 11:34

Sandy wrote:b) If you have a single-use port with no real upgrade path and limited space, eliminating it for a multi-use port seems reasonable. Trying to make an 1/8" port that handles power, data, and analog audio in a way that's backwards-compatible with current analog headphones seems unlikely to succeed.
Apple managed to do exactly that with the iPod Shuffle.

I really do not understand the arguments in favor of getting rid of the 1/8" jack, except purely from Apple's point of view ("hey, let's lower component count and reclaim some real estate"). For everyone else, getting rid of the jack screws over 50 years of backwards compatibility, opens the door to further DRM control, and does not enable anything you couldn't already do before.

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 12:08

JD wrote:
Sandy wrote:b) If you have a single-use port with no real upgrade path and limited space, eliminating it for a multi-use port seems reasonable. Trying to make an 1/8" port that handles power, data, and analog audio in a way that's backwards-compatible with current analog headphones seems unlikely to succeed.
Apple managed to do exactly that with the iPod Shuffle.

I really do not understand the arguments in favor of getting rid of the 1/8" jack, except purely from Apple's point of view ("hey, let's lower component count and reclaim some real estate"). For everyone else, getting rid of the jack screws over 50 years of backwards compatibility, opens the door to further DRM control, and does not enable anything you couldn't already do before.
Huh. I stand corrected. Thanks.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2016, 12:29

Sandy wrote:At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me. The best argument I've heard against it is the inability to use wired headphones and charge the thing at the same time. Dunno if lightning supports splitting.
Except that you have a cross device compatibility issue. I can't use the same headphones on my phone and PC, for example. Not to mention, a lot of people still use the Aux jack in their car.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Hugh Akston » 08 Sep 2016, 12:32

Yeah the car audio thing is going to be the sticker for me. I'm going to talk to some car audio shops to see if they can convert my 12v power port into a legit USB data connection.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 12:44

Mo wrote:
Sandy wrote:At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me. The best argument I've heard against it is the inability to use wired headphones and charge the thing at the same time. Dunno if lightning supports splitting.
Except that you have a cross device compatibility issue. I can't use the same headphones on my phone and PC, for example. Not to mention, a lot of people still use the Aux jack in their car.
Which is why USB-C would have been better, as more future devices could use it.

Most newer cars seem to use Bluetooth, but yes, it could be a hassle for some people.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2016, 12:45

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:
Sandy wrote:At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me. The best argument I've heard against it is the inability to use wired headphones and charge the thing at the same time. Dunno if lightning supports splitting.
Except that you have a cross device compatibility issue. I can't use the same headphones on my phone and PC, for example. Not to mention, a lot of people still use the Aux jack in their car.
Which is why USB-C would have been better, as more future devices could use it.

Most newer cars seem to use Bluetooth, but yes, it could be a hassle for some people.
Just because your car uses Bluetooth does not mean Bluetooth is best. The Bluetooth stack blows. For some reason, it always feels like my phone will refuse to connect to my car's Bluetooth connection when I get an important call and going 75 mph on the highway.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Sep 2016, 12:51

Sandy wrote:At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me.
That's actually a really good argument for keeping the 3.5mm. If I lose my $15 3.5mm headphones, nbd. I have to lose or break 19 of them before I'm out as much as if I lose one pair of $150 Air Buds.
The best argument I've heard against it is the inability to use wired headphones and charge the thing at the same time. Dunno if lightning supports splitting.

Anyway, now people accept that USB replacing ADB and losing the floppy is acceptable, but at the time, I heard more or less the same "muh legacy" arguments, and I suspect once again other manufacturers will follow suit. It was just crappy of Apple not to do what they did with USB and switch to USB-C so they could reassure that non-Apple products could use the headphones, etc.
When I lost the 3.5", I couldn't play my 1988 copy of Red Storm Rising anymore. I had a sad.



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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Sep 2016, 12:57

And yeah, since they're supposed to drop new Macbook Pros in a couple months, supposedly dropping everything but USB-C and Thunderbolt (maybe keeping HDMI?) why not push that trend and go USB-C on the iPhone.

And if they were allowing charging pass-through on the 7, I think the Apple fanboys would be smugly shouting at the haters so loud you could hear it in space. I have yet to hear that, and I'm in a compressible fluid medium well suited for sound propagation.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2016, 12:59

You're welcome lunch.

Also, comparing a bedongled PC or laptop with a phone is dumb. If I need to get an external floppy drive, it doesn't matter because I don't carry my desktop in my pocket. If I need a ethernet dongle or DVD, no problem, I can fit one easily in my laptop bag or leave it at my desk. I don't need to worry about one more fucking thing to lose in my pocket. If I had hardware design skills, I would make a Mophie with a headphone jack and make bank.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 13:09

lunchstealer wrote:
Sandy wrote:At the rate people go through headphones, eliminating 3.5mm is just not that big a deal to me.
That's actually a really good argument for keeping the 3.5mm. If I lose my $15 3.5mm headphones, nbd. I have to lose or break 19 of them before I'm out as much as if I lose one pair of $150 Air Buds.
...or the $29 Lightning earphones. Or use the included dongle and $15 headphones.
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Re: Portable Techno-Capitalism

Post by Sandy » 08 Sep 2016, 13:11

Shorter this thread:

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