Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 22 Sep 2017, 20:41

Too bad. "Jito [Your Last Name]" would be a great name for a football player.
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Mo
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Mo » 22 Sep 2017, 22:57

I predict 20% more players kneeling during the anthem this weekend.
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Kolohe
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Kolohe » 22 Sep 2017, 23:20

There's a possibility that there exists a 'car crash' fan base for the NFL and those fans might be tuning out as 'big hits' are now mostly penalized and have become more infrequent over the past few years.

We were watching Dexter Manley's A Football Life the other day, and if he played like that today, he'd be suspended even before the drug test results came back.
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JasonL
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by JasonL » 23 Sep 2017, 09:02

My own frustrations about football relate to all the conversation being about things that aren't football. Domestic violence, suspensions for weed, anthem kneeling, union vs league on commish power, deflated balls, CTE. STFU and snap the ball.

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Warren » 23 Sep 2017, 09:59

Kolohe wrote:
22 Sep 2017, 23:20
There's a possibility that there exists a 'car crash' fan base for the NFL and those fans might be tuning out as 'big hits' are now mostly penalized and have become more infrequent over the past few years.

We were watching Dexter Manley's A Football Life the other day, and if he played like that today, he'd be suspended even before the drug test results came back.
Um duh? Watching behemoth athletes slam into one another is the primary attraction of football.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Highway » 23 Sep 2017, 11:22

JasonL wrote:
23 Sep 2017, 09:02
My own frustrations about football relate to all the conversation being about things that aren't football. Domestic violence, suspensions for weed, anthem kneeling, union vs league on commish power, deflated balls, CTE. STFU and snap the ball.
Those conversations are all happening because none of those issues are being adequately addressed. Why are guys getting suspended for weed and blackballed from the league, when other guys with unarguably worse moral issues are just fine. CTE / concussions are an important issue, and the NFL's like "Problem? What problem? Ohhhhhh, you mean THAT problem? That's not that bad. Ok, it's kinda bad. How about we'll do this other thing. That's good enough, right?"

The whole sport of football has been trying to distract you from every other issue with "Hey, that doesn't matter, look at what's on the field." People don't buy it anymore, especially when what's on the field is Blake Bortles and Brian Hoyer.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Painboy » 25 Sep 2017, 11:49

I'm pretty certain that any drop in good football can be laid at the feet of the CBA. The game has become much more complex over the years yet training camps have shrunk to a couple weeks thanks to the Player's Union's demands. I understand that they want to reduce the wear and tear on players but there are indications that its had the opposite effect than they intended.

For many teams player fundamentals are really poor. This is because coaches do not have the time available so they have to make the gamble of installing a complex offense/defense while hoping the players can figure out the fundamentals on their own. This has the effect of players not knowing how to tackle or easily move in pads putting players at more risk for neck and head injuries. There's also some evidence that going light in practice and then going hard in game actually increases the likelihood for injury.

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Warren » 25 Sep 2017, 14:05

Painboy wrote:
25 Sep 2017, 11:49
I'm pretty certain that any drop in good football can be laid at the feet of the CBA.
I'm sure that's a factor. But I think a bigger factor is the salary cap rules. Teams can't afford to keep their best talent. So while the uniforms are the same the churn is too great to allow cohesive units to form, especially amongst the first string players.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Mo » 25 Sep 2017, 14:14

The two are related. Which is why the best teams are the ones with the most roster stability. You can deal with churn with practice.
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Painboy
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Painboy » 25 Sep 2017, 16:14

Warren wrote:
25 Sep 2017, 14:05
Painboy wrote:
25 Sep 2017, 11:49
I'm pretty certain that any drop in good football can be laid at the feet of the CBA.
I'm sure that's a factor. But I think a bigger factor is the salary cap rules. Teams can't afford to keep their best talent. So while the uniforms are the same the churn is too great to allow cohesive units to form, especially amongst the first string players.
The salary cap rules are the only thing that keeps parity in the league. Before that big market teams could easily out spend smaller market teams. It's why you often saw the same teams in the playoffs over and over. It's also why there were a lot more dynasties back then. There was very little churn.

Also paying players more doesn't necessarily correlate into better play. Look how many FAs get big contracts only to flame out and never again display the ability they originally got the contract for.

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Mo » 26 Sep 2017, 00:00

Daily Caller wins for stupidest article.

Headline: NFL Owner Says He Is ‘F*****g Livid’ At Players Who Protest The National Anthem

Relevant quote:
To be clear, the owner we spoke with is a shareholder of the Green Bay Packers. We feel this makes him uniquely qualified to put his finger on the pulse of everyday Americans, as opposed to possibly out of touch billionaires that own other NFL franchises.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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JasonL
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by JasonL » 26 Sep 2017, 10:35

OFFS

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Kolohe » 26 Sep 2017, 13:02

In a way, I'm not even mad. That's amazing trolling.
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Mo
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Mo » 26 Sep 2017, 16:40

To the Masked Grylliader who was forced by their SO to listen to the HRC audio book. Here is your salvation. All you can eat football.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Shem
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Shem » 26 Sep 2017, 21:35

Painboy wrote:
22 Sep 2017, 18:29
If I had a kid I wouldn't have any problem with them playing Peewee football. It's really hard for them to significantly injure themselves as the amount padding they run around in is like being wrapped with a bunch pillows. Kids at that size don't have the power or mass to really hurt each other with that stuff. Most leagues have weight limits on them as well to keep out those maturing a little too quickly.
None of the padding that's used today prevents concussions, which is how you get CTE. There's actually some indication that Peewee might be worse for concussions, because children have less-developed neck muscles and so they're more liable to have their head bobble around during a hit than high schoolers or adults. The fact that they autopsied older teenagers who died of other causes and checked for CTE, and found it, was what convinced me the game is either going to change or die.
Painboy wrote:
25 Sep 2017, 16:14
The salary cap rules are the only thing that keeps parity in the league. Before that big market teams could easily out spend smaller market teams. It's why you often saw the same teams in the playoffs over and over. It's also why there were a lot more dynasties back then. There was very little churn.
As opposed to the past 15 years, when the AFC's Superbowl representative has pretty much consisted of the Patriots, the Steelers, and whichever team Peyton Manning was on?
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Painboy » 26 Sep 2017, 23:55

Shem wrote:
26 Sep 2017, 21:35
Painboy wrote:
22 Sep 2017, 18:29
If I had a kid I wouldn't have any problem with them playing Peewee football. It's really hard for them to significantly injure themselves as the amount padding they run around in is like being wrapped with a bunch pillows. Kids at that size don't have the power or mass to really hurt each other with that stuff. Most leagues have weight limits on them as well to keep out those maturing a little too quickly.
And everything gives you cancer. There's indications everything is worse for everything. CTE still requires an enormous amount of study before anyone can start saying definitively what causes what. Given the number of kids who have played football over the last 30 odd years CTE should be an epidemic if that little exposure can cause it.
Shem wrote:
26 Sep 2017, 21:35
Painboy wrote:
25 Sep 2017, 16:14
The salary cap rules are the only thing that keeps parity in the league. Before that big market teams could easily out spend smaller market teams. It's why you often saw the same teams in the playoffs over and over. It's also why there were a lot more dynasties back then. There was very little churn.
As opposed to the past 15 years, when the AFC's Superbowl representative has pretty much consisted of the Patriots, the Steelers, and whichever team Peyton Manning was on?
Those teams had/have steady HOF QBs in a league now designed for passing. It's why QBs get so much of the pie these days.

Back in the day you didn't need great QBs to win games because you could pay all of your all pros to stick around forever. Look at Terry Bradshaw's numbers. They weren't terribly impressive, but with that team around him you could have put almost anyone in there and had success. Take Manning away from the Colts and we could see how they did. Oh wait that did happen and they weren't quite so formidable.

This is why everyone wants the "Franchise QB" so desperately. It's the only way a team can get an advantage due to the salary cap.

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Shem » 27 Sep 2017, 02:02

Painboy wrote:
26 Sep 2017, 23:55
Back in the day you didn't need great QBs to win games because you could pay all of your all pros to stick around forever. Look at Terry Bradshaw's numbers. They weren't terribly impressive, but with that team around him you could have put almost anyone in there and had success. Take Manning away from the Colts and we could see how they did. Oh wait that did happen and they weren't quite so formidable.
Back in the day you didn't have to worry about paying your pros, because free agency wasn't a thing, so even if they wanted to leave, there was nowhere for them to go, because league rules and gentlemen's agreements between owners meant nobody would take them. The Rozelle Rule meant the commissioner could award money and draft picks to a team who lost a player, taken from the team that signed him. Then, after that went away in the late 70s, Plan B let the owners protect 37 players of their choice. It kept wages low and gave clubs all the power. There was a reason why Steve Young and Reggie White went to the USFL even though it was brand new and kind of a joke. The only reason they instituted a salary cap was because their nice little cartel was disrupted. In 1992. Two years later, they had a cap. Free agency has done more to bring the parity your taking about than the cap has.

(Just to make it clear how little the NFL was paying, Bradshaw's rookie contract was $25,000 per year plus a $100,000 signing bonus spread out over 10 years. By the end of his career he was at about $470,000, and was the 4th highest paid player in the league.)
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Jennifer » 27 Sep 2017, 04:47

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 507634001/
The degenerative brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) has been diagnosed in 110 of 111 former NFL players whose brains were donated for research, according to an updated study published in The Journal of the American Medical Association on Tuesday.

In total, CTE was diagnosed in 87% of 202 former football players --- including high school, college, NFL, Canadian Football League and semipro. The study, the largest conducted into the potential link of brain trauma in football and CTE, was led by researchers at Boston University and the VA Boston Healthcare System.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Highway » 27 Sep 2017, 09:07

I think we do need to keep in mind that CTE isn't a binary thing, like cancer, where you either don't have it and you're fine, or you have it and you're screwed. It's more like most diseases and conditions where there are more and less severe cases. And we don't even really understand how the degree of severity of CTE translates into other effects for the patient.

But it's also that we don't know who's going to be susceptible to it. And we can't tell who had it until after the fact, although I think it's getting to the point where we can figure that just about every athlete in a sport that can give you a concussion probably has it to some degree.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Shem » 27 Sep 2017, 09:45

CTE also isn't the only condition you get from repeated concussions.** Each concussion you get increases both your likelihood of getting another, and your susceptibility to conditions like depression.

**Unless they all turn out to be connected, which is still distressingly possible.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Kolohe » 27 Sep 2017, 09:49

Cancer also isn't a binary thing in that we can't generally draw a bright line between 'this amount of substance x will give you cancer' and 'this amount will not'. It's all probabilistic.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Highway » 27 Sep 2017, 09:53

Shem wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 09:45
CTE also isn't the only condition you get from repeated concussions.** Each concussion you get increases both your likelihood of getting another, and your susceptibility to conditions like depression.

**Unless they all turn out to be connected, which is still distressingly possible.
I think that it is all connected. I think that what they'll find is that the encephalitis is the mechanism for both increasing susceptibility to concussions and the mental health conditions. And I think what they're finding is that it's not even just diagnosed concussions that contribute to the development of CTE, but for some people it's even the repeated lower force impacts. Maybe you can say that every football player would have a concussion at some point or other in their life, but I don't think that's the case. But it's turning out that just about every person who has played football has some degree of CTE.
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Highway » 27 Sep 2017, 09:55

Kolohe wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 09:49
Cancer also isn't a binary thing in that we can't generally draw a bright line between 'this amount of substance x will give you cancer' and 'this amount will not'. It's all probabilistic.
But it's more of a binary thing in that you have it enough to be diagnosed and you're doing all you can to get rid of it (or just waiting until the end), or you don't have it. CTE's going to be more like arthritis as far as "everyone has some degree of it, but the severity and impact on quality of life is significantly varied."
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Taktix® » 27 Sep 2017, 10:27

I saw Bob Costas talking somewhere in the last week (before the weekend of Kneelgate), and he said:

a) Pee Wee football enrollment is waaaaaay down in the last 5 years.
b) There's talk of switching all pre-college football to flag/touch variants so that tackle football could only be played by 18+ year-olds signing consent waivers.
c) No amount of padding currently in use or development does anything for CTE, because the point of impact is between the brain and the inside of the skull, which can only be alleviated by eliminating the rapid deceleration/directional change inherent in tackling.

Pair these with my personal theory that professional football is increasingly fake/rigged, and I doubt the sport will exist in any currently recognizable form in 20 years...
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Re: Browns give up, pay 16 million for Super Bowl Ring: NFL '17

Post by Warren » 27 Sep 2017, 11:27

Taktix® wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 10:27
I saw Bob Costas talking somewhere in the last week (before the weekend of Kneelgate), and he said:

a) Pee Wee football enrollment is waaaaaay down in the last 5 years.
b) There's talk of switching all pre-college football to flag/touch variants so that tackle football could only be played by 18+ year-olds signing consent waivers.
c) No amount of padding currently in use or development does anything for CTE, because the point of impact is between the brain and the inside of the skull, which can only be alleviated by eliminating the rapid deceleration/directional change inherent in tackling.

Pair these with my personal theory that professional football is increasingly fake/rigged, and I doubt the sport will exist in any currently recognizable form in 20 years...
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