It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

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the innominate one
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by the innominate one » 02 Aug 2016, 23:18

dbcooper wrote:The Red Letter Media videos were amusing, so that's as good as it gets for me.
Scientist man video or half in the bag #112? Or both?
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 02 Aug 2016, 23:34

Jennifer wrote:I do think Eric had a good question, though: since when do intentions have to be "pure" to make a Hollywood summer movie? Plus a question of my own: why are the "impure" motivations of someone who says "Hey, let's make a movie with female leads rather than males" worse than any other "impure" motivations?
If they were rebooting Transformers, I suspect it would be met with a resounding "meh." But Ghostbusters was taking something people viewed partially through nostalgic glasses and partially through accurate recall of the first one and already red-flagging it by starting with a shoe-horn. So many of them reacted to that.

I imagine similar reactions would have happened had it been a Ben Affleck-led cast, and the intent was to establish him as a comedy genius, or something. Certainly his casting as Batman got that reaction. But nobody accused them of misandry for it, so it really didn't go anywhere.

It never really bothered me, but I understood why some people might be butthurt about it. I found it worthy of an eye-roll but hoped they'd do something cool. They didn't, and that's fine, but no amount of telling me I hate women will get me to plunk down $12 and put up with texting teens and screaming kids to go see it when I can just wait and get it at no additional cost later on my own system with only snoring dogs to annoy me.

I still have yet to see anybody source significant hate toward SW:TFA for having a black character in it. Especially since there was one before in 1980, so it wasn't really new unless you were a journalist desperate for clickbait. There might have been a couple of Stormfags reviling it, but all I saw were "huh? I thought stormtroopers were all clones of a white(ish) guy!" and then the usual nerd theory wars.

Strikingly Rogue One and Wonder Woman haven't gotten any real backlash either, despite being nerd films without significant dick presence. It's almost like GB 2016 was a PR fuckup from beginning to release, and that led to the backlash more than how vagarrific it was.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by the innominate one » 03 Aug 2016, 00:25

the innominate one wrote:
dbcooper wrote:The Red Letter Media videos were amusing, so that's as good as it gets for me.
Scientist man video or half in the bag #112? Or both?
I've watched both and they are way too long; in the former, just posted today, the analysis should be bolted to a proton pack, and that pack should be used with another pack to cross the streams so that the analysis is utterly destroyed and erased from our universe.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by lunchstealer » 03 Aug 2016, 11:38

One thing they get right - and it's probably what saved the movie for me - is that trailer Leslie Jones was the biggest flaw in the film, and the trailer is literally every scene of trailer Leslie Jones. The rest of movie Leslie Jones is a different character, and easily the best, most grounded character in the film, and probably the funniest for just that reason. She's not mugging for laughs and sassy-black-lady-ing it up (well, she is, but no more than appropriate for her character). The plot is still terrible, but in SNL movie ways. That's the legit criticism of the film, not that it's some sort of grrl power men-are-all-rapists screed.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 12:05

Sandy wrote:I imagine similar reactions would have happened had it been a Ben Affleck-led cast, and the intent was to establish him as a comedy genius, or something. Certainly his casting as Batman got that reaction. But nobody accused them of misandry for it, so it really didn't go anywhere.
The reason nobody accused Affleck's critics of misandry is because none of the criticisms of him boiled down to "Grr, he's got the wrong pee-pee to be the star of this movie."
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 03 Aug 2016, 12:12

Jennifer wrote:
Sandy wrote:I imagine similar reactions would have happened had it been a Ben Affleck-led cast, and the intent was to establish him as a comedy genius, or something. Certainly his casting as Batman got that reaction. But nobody accused them of misandry for it, so it really didn't go anywhere.
The reason nobody accused Affleck's critics of misandry is because none of the criticisms of him boiled down to "Grr, he's got the wrong pee-pee to be the star of this movie."
s/wrong pee-pee/shoehorned in as pandering gimmick/
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by thoreau » 03 Aug 2016, 12:23

Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?

FWIW, I saw a version of Julius Caesar where Caesar was a woman politician with a lesbian wife and it worked. I'm sure that the director holds a number of personal beliefs that would naturally incline her to find that sort of thing satisfying, but the director's personal satisfaction doesn't change the fact that that production worked.

For all I know, maybe behind the scenes there were people on the production team of BSG who were all psyched and Girl!Power! over a female Starbuck. Maybe they said feminist things to each-other off-camera. Maybe I would have rolled my eyes if I'd been a fly on the wall for some of those conversations. It was still an amazing show for two seasons and an OK show for the fourth season. (We will not speak of the third season.)
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by the innominate one » 03 Aug 2016, 12:37

thoreau wrote:Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?
Yes, I suggested one for this specific movie. But thanks for pretending otherwise.

I like Elementary, despite the fact that (or even because) both Watson and Moriarty are females (and the female Moriarty is smarter than Holmes). Maybe it would have worked if Holmes had been female (too or instead). But we have evidence that the new Ghostbusters were made all female for reasons extrinsic to the story.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Aug 2016, 12:38

thoreau wrote:Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?
The Powerpuff Boys?

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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 03 Aug 2016, 12:40

You'll note there was nowhere near the backlash against Starbuck la femme as there was for GB {CURRENT YEAR}. They may have done it for GIRL POWERZ ACTIVATE behind the scenes, but they just changed a couple of characters (hey, anybody remember Boomer was a black guy in the original? Funny how nobody protests the yellowwashing of that character.) and left the sister/romantic interests out of it, which made some sense. (Hey, remember how BSG 1979 was the first one to do a legitimized prostitute, way before Joss Whedon?)

Maybe it's a case of seeing the sausage made. But it would have gone away had they not consistently and deliberately labeled all criticism (including, oddly, the reaction to Trailer Jones being a racist stereotype) as "misogyny." Note that nobody involved in BSG 2K ever said that anyone who didn't like Season 3's punches-replace-dialog was doing it because they hate black people or Canadians or whatever.

This is also, I think, a problem of IP. Since nobody else can do an alternate Ghostbusters, there's no room to say "meh, let Fieg do his thing and hopefully JJ Abrams will do a version with MOAR FLAREZ." That was also a problem for BSG (remember there was the competing production from Richard Hatch, and that caused controversy too). But it's not a problem for Julius Caesar, because anybody can pitch a version of it and do it. Maybe the next one will feature a cast of tumblrinas and the assassination is a bunch of people misgendering xe and using problematic pronouns. None of that will affect whether the next JC gets made.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 12:40

the innominate one wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?
Yes, I suggested one for this specific movie. But thanks for pretending otherwise.
Why is "the original Ghostbusters' daughters inherit the business" less gimmicky or PC than a straight-up reboot, only featuring women rather than men?
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by thoreau » 03 Aug 2016, 12:41

the innominate one wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?
Yes, I suggested one for this specific movie. But thanks for pretending otherwise.
I'm not seeing how making them the daughters of the original Ghostbusters is any less gimmicky or PC or whatever than just doing a reboot. Either way they clearly want to have an all-female team, the only difference is whether to start the story fresh or commit themselves to continuity.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 03 Aug 2016, 12:41

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is there a way to do a reboot/remake with character genders changed without it being seen as gimmicky or PC run amok or whatever?
The Powerpuff Boys?
I predict that this and Sex in the City--this time with teh MENZ! will get no pushback and bland acceptance from everyone. Absolutely no one will go apeshit because they have the wrong pee-pee.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 12:43

Sandy wrote:You'll note there was nowhere near the backlash against Starbuck la femme as there was for GB {CURRENT YEAR}.
Perhaps that's because the BG reboot came up when the Internet was still fairly primitive, and "social media" wasn't remotely the big thing t is now? No Twitter, no YouTube, Facebook was still an obscure new platform limited to students at certain colleges....
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by thoreau » 03 Aug 2016, 12:45

Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by dhex » 03 Aug 2016, 12:45

looking or queer as folk is essentially satc with men, which itself was degrassi high with more salad tossing.

eta: people should probably take entertainment less seriously.

eta2.0: gb already fucked itself up. it was called ghostbusters 2. there was nothing left to ruin.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 03 Aug 2016, 12:52

dhex wrote:looking or queer as folk is essentially satc with men, which itself was degrassi high with more salad tossing.

eta: people should probably take entertainment less seriously.

eta2.0: gb already fucked itself up. it was called ghostbusters 2. there was nothing left to ruin.
I didn't mind it. It wasn't as good as the first one, but it gave us Peter MacNicol.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 12:55

thoreau wrote:Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
Sure, but nothing remotely along the lines of "Mainstream media turns today's Twitter trend into an actual story." I first learned of the racist "Boycott Star Wars" movement and the "Whaddaya mean, the upcoming Ghostbusters won't have dicks?!?" outcry by reading news sites, not social media.
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Sandy » 03 Aug 2016, 13:13

Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
Sure, but nothing remotely along the lines of "Mainstream media turns today's Twitter trend into an actual story." I first learned of the racist "Boycott Star Wars" movement and the "Whaddaya mean, the upcoming Ghostbusters won't have dicks?!?" outcry by reading news sites, not social media.
Isn't that saying more about the media than the internet?
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 13:22

Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
Sure, but nothing remotely along the lines of "Mainstream media turns today's Twitter trend into an actual story." I first learned of the racist "Boycott Star Wars" movement and the "Whaddaya mean, the upcoming Ghostbusters won't have dicks?!?" outcry by reading news sites, not social media.
Isn't that saying more about the media than the internet?
What, if anything, would've been the equivalent of "trending on Twitter" back when people were griping about New Starbuck being a woman?
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Painboy » 03 Aug 2016, 13:45

Jennifer wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
Sure, but nothing remotely along the lines of "Mainstream media turns today's Twitter trend into an actual story." I first learned of the racist "Boycott Star Wars" movement and the "Whaddaya mean, the upcoming Ghostbusters won't have dicks?!?" outcry by reading news sites, not social media.
Isn't that saying more about the media than the internet?
What, if anything, would've been the equivalent of "trending on Twitter" back when people were griping about New Starbuck being a woman?
Forums, internet articles, fansites, and so on. Twitter and Facebook just made it more immediate and spazy.

Part of the issues is Ghostbusters was an iconic movie of it's time which almost everyone who was alive at the time saw it. Messing with that is always going to bring criticism. The original BSG, while fondly remembered by some, isn't going to have that same cache and changes aren't going to be really scrutinized with the same level of passion.

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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2016, 13:48

Painboy wrote:Part of the issues is Ghostbusters was an iconic movie of it's time which almost everyone who was alive at the time saw it. Messing with that is always going to bring criticism.
Sure, but the specific criticism of "How DARE they replace male characters with female!" is still distinct from a mere "Eh, there was no need to remake (or reboot) the franchise in the first place."
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by thoreau » 03 Aug 2016, 13:55

Yeah, I'm very open to an argument that the last thing we need is the revival of yet another 80's franchise. My own verdict on Ghostbusters--with bewbs! is that it was a good movie but not as good as the original. But that has nothing to do with "Ew! They let girls into the clubhouse!"
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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Painboy » 03 Aug 2016, 13:59

Jennifer wrote:
Painboy wrote:Part of the issues is Ghostbusters was an iconic movie of it's time which almost everyone who was alive at the time saw it. Messing with that is always going to bring criticism.
Sure, but the specific criticism of "How DARE they replace male characters with female!" is still distinct from a mere "Eh, there was no need to remake (or reboot) the franchise in the first place."
Because that's the most obvious change? And it's a rather large one. I'm sure you have seen how people get up in arms when films whitewash adaptations of other media. People used to one thing and then getting another thing get pissed off. It's why TV series' inevitably get stuck in ruts. They've exhausted a premise but much of the audience wants more of the same. So when they try to move into another direction people freak. It's why procedurals are so popular and have long legs. It's easy to just crank episodes out because it's the same thing, with a few variations, every episode.

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Re: It's true, Your Honor; these Ghostbusters have no dicks.

Post by Mo » 03 Aug 2016, 14:03

Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Eh, the 2004 internet wasn't exactly primitive. Yes, the current favorite sites weren't around, but there were plenty of places for people to whine and flame even in the quaint era of windmill-powered internet that was 2004.
Sure, but nothing remotely along the lines of "Mainstream media turns today's Twitter trend into an actual story." I first learned of the racist "Boycott Star Wars" movement and the "Whaddaya mean, the upcoming Ghostbusters won't have dicks?!?" outcry by reading news sites, not social media.
Isn't that saying more about the media than the internet?
It says more about media consumers than the media.
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