To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Feb 2018, 12:19

At least it can be said that, whatever the merits of the three Blade movies, none of them were directed by a black director. I haven't checked, but I suspect the same is true of most of the writers. The big deal, such as it is, about Black Panther is that it is a FUBU Marvel superhero movie.

I doubt that Wonder Woman would have been given the budget and promotion it got had Jennifer Lawrence not already proven a market for female lead action movies with the Hunger Games franchise. Aside from Alien, there were quite a few not very successful female lead action movies, e.g., Laura Croft, Catwoman, SALT, Ultra Violet, Aeon Flux, Elektra, etc. Some made money, but none of them gave Hollywood any confidence that there was a real market for female action heroes.

Did anyone here think Black Panther was any better than your average Marvel superhero movie? Because, while I fully understand the political perspective, I thought it was otherwise just so-so.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 12:38

I would say it was better than Marvel's average, but not awesomely spectacular or anything. Better than a lot of Marvel movies, not quite as good as the first Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy. On par with Dr. Strange.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Sandy » 19 Feb 2018, 12:40

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:19
ALaura Croft, Catwoman, SALT, Ultra Violet, Aeon Flux, Elektra, etc.
But apart from those, what have the Romans done for us? Nothing!
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Feb 2018, 12:42

Sandy wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:40
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:19
ALaura Croft, Catwoman, SALT, Ultra Violet, Aeon Flux, Elektra, etc.
But apart from those, what have the Romans done for us? Nothing!
This, fellow Grylliaders, is the fellow who posted a "Racist" meme under my Facebook comment that failed to rave about Black Panther.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 19 Feb 2018, 13:15

thoreau wrote: For instance, I will go to the mat arguing that Wonder Woman had a ton of problems with the plot. I mean, come on, it's a DC movie! But I will also say without hesitation that it's the best DC movie thus far in this continuity. OTOH, I have friends who insist that it was great but can't really explain what they like, and I know them well enough to know that they're basically saying "It is a movie with A Strong Female Lead, and I choose to pretend that no such action movie has ever been made before." It's just dumb. I mean, if his wife wants to let her inner 6 year-old girl out and just love the movie because she loved Wonder Woman as a girl, that's cool. We all have silly tastes, and it's OK to be like "Yeah, sometimes I just want to like something and not over-think it." But my buddy feels the need to support that via properly Woke displays. He feels the need to argue its merits with me, but he can't quite explain what he likes, and I can just tell that he's holding back from saying "Because I am trying to be a properly feminist husband."
Anyone wants to argue that Wonder Woman had problems with the plot, or even that they plain didn't like the movie, fine. Quite different from a Ben Shapiro or anyone else snidely ranting about those excited to see it: "Women think this movie is the most important step forward for women's rights since the end of coverture. It is so deeply important—we’ve heard it is deeply important to millions of women, who, after all, were not given the vote 100 years ago liberated by the second-wave feminist movement with federal legislation and have not been gradually restored to what always should have been full civil rights in the United States. Alright, none of that has mattered up ’til they made a movie about a super hero who is a strong woman in a country filled with strong women. That is the real, that’s the change."
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 13:25

If my buddy keeps saying it is great and plot doesn't matter but it is great because...hey, look, over there! But it is great and I am just being silly to care about plot and yeah it's great.....

And in other conversations he will take any and all female supporting characters from comic book movies, no matter how obscure, and explain why they need their own spinoff movies.....

And he explains that my story is bad for his daughter because it opens with two dudes complaining about a sensationalist TV host who happens to be a woman....

Then, yeah, I know why he is gushing about Wonder Woman. I don't hold it against him (we all have our blind spots) but I do know what is going on.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Mo » 19 Feb 2018, 14:21

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 23:06
The thing that strikes me as odd about this is that nerds in general got excited, at first, for their cultural icons hitting the mainstream without people, "Well actuallying" about Lou Ferrigno.
Was there a huge number of press articles talking about how Ang Lee was the first person to ever bring The Hulk to live action that I missed?
There were a bunch of articles in the recent past saying things along the lines of, “Finally aspects of nerd culture are mainstream instead of being in the cult movie ghetto.”

E.g. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/s ... s-now.html

Note it says things like video games being mainstream, despite Nintendo, Sega and Sony making billions in the 80s and 90s.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Painboy » 19 Feb 2018, 14:53

Warren wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 10:05
Sandy wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 22:46
Yeah, there’s any number of hyperbolic breathless paeans to both movies as the first of their kind and “everything” because apparently being a cultural critic doesn’t imply any work to become familiar with culture. With Wonder Woman it wasn’t just the first female superhero, she was the first female lead of an action movie and all the nerd boys were butthurt so yay women, even though no nerds were actually butthurt and all of them said, “weird how Sigorney Weaver ceased to exist and if she did exist we’d all hate her instead of her and those movies being incredibly popular and iconic.”

In this case, even Red Letter Media pointed out that Blade not only was made but had two sequels. It’s even a Marvel property, ffs.

Just like they took a couple of random Twitter trolls (and an article on Return of Kings, seriously) and tried to turn that into a nerd backlash against Star Wars VII, every movie seems to have unwarranted reflexive claims of “proving haters wrong,” whether haters exist or not, and whether criticism stems from gender or race or not. Bad Improv Ghostbusters and Senseless Plot Star Wars The Pointless Jedi were just hated by salty nerds from Gamergate, who also elected Trump and shot up your school and soured the milk and peed in the watering pond.
Exactly right.
Double exactly. :)

I'm still trying to come up with a term that describes what Sandy is talking about. It's where the smallest most insignificant comment, tweet, or blog, is blown up and taken as evidence of some kind of enormous counter movement, so the slacktivists can all feel like they are bravely standing in solidarity against an implacable enemy. An enemy they can easily swat down of course since few if any people actually believe what they claim they do. Proggies are the main culprits but conservatives (although not as skilled in it) do it as well with shit like the "War on Christmas" and such.

It has elements of a straw man, but that really only applies when someone is purposely distorting another person's argument to make a point. They aren't exaggerating, or in certain cases just making up, some mass countermovement or population that also believes it.

I've mentioned it before with articles that are in a Myth vs. Truth format. The format being, Myth: This is what everyone believes, Truth: This is what is actually true. The problem is in the Myth statement where it is often framed as everyone (or at least the vast majority of certain population) believes this. In some cases that can of course be true but I often see it used purely for effect to make the Truth statement have more impact or seem more insightful than it is. At its worst it is used as a kind of validation to the writer and their readers. Myth: The population of this country thinks it's smart. Truth: They're not (but you, clever reader, already knew that).

My instinct was to use something from 1984 since it has similarities to the 2 minute hate and the made up enemy of Big Brother Goldstein, but I don't feel like it's quite the same thing.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Warren » 19 Feb 2018, 15:58

It's the inherent perversion of Victim Culture. Sitting on top of the Victim pyramid is the position of greatest social power. To stay on top, you have to perpetuate the myth that you're on the bottom.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Sandy » 19 Feb 2018, 16:40

Mo wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 14:21
Note it says things like video games being mainstream, despite Nintendo, Sega and Sony making billions in the 80s and 90s.
Well akshually...I think they're right. If you'd put that you were into Star Wars or video games on a dating profile as recently as 2008, you'd be the subject of mockery, pity, or scorn (maybe video games was a little earlier). But now dumb jocks play the AAA games as well and go see the latest nerd-based action spectacle.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by dhex » 19 Feb 2018, 17:03

1998 maybe

maaaybe

i dunno i think you guys hung out in the wrong parts of culture town.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Feb 2018, 17:27

dhex wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 17:03
i dunno i think you guys hung out in the wrong parts of culture town.
That's kind of my take on the reaction to the Black Panther reaction, here.

I don't run in SoCal academia, so maybe I'm missing the big picture *cough*, but I'm not seeing many people, even superhero geeks, wetting themselves at the wokeness or significance of the movie. Sure, real excitement by some at having a black man be lead on a "proper" superhero movie. And naturally, a lot of huffing by others that anyone should have any happy reaction to a movie with a non-white-guy lead (not that there's anything wrong with a black guy or woman being lead, to be sure...just so long as nobody cares about that detail). But I'm not seeing the sort of reaction being mocked.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by lunchstealer » 19 Feb 2018, 17:35

thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:38
I would say it was better than Marvel's average, but not awesomely spectacular or anything. Better than a lot of Marvel movies, not quite as good as the first Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy. On par with Dr. Strange.
I'll cosign this, with the addendum that The Winter Soldier is the best of the MCU films, by a hair.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by lunchstealer » 19 Feb 2018, 17:45

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:42
Sandy wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:40
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:19
ALaura Croft, Catwoman, SALT, Ultra Violet, Aeon Flux, Elektra, etc.
But apart from those, what have the Romans done for us? Nothing!
This, fellow Grylliaders, is the fellow who posted a "Racist" meme under my Facebook comment that failed to rave about Black Panther.
One assumes you are aware he was shitposting. He does a lot of that these days.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Feb 2018, 18:08

lunchstealer wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 17:45
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:42
Sandy wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:40
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:19
ALaura Croft, Catwoman, SALT, Ultra Violet, Aeon Flux, Elektra, etc.
But apart from those, what have the Romans done for us? Nothing!
This, fellow Grylliaders, is the fellow who posted a "Racist" meme under my Facebook comment that failed to rave about Black Panther.
One assumes you are aware he was shitposting. He does a lot of that these days.
I am entirely aware. Alas, my Facebook circle is much broader.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 18:08

I'm gonna say that Black Panther is Marvel's best James Bond movie.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 19 Feb 2018, 18:14

thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 13:25
If my buddy keeps saying it is great and plot doesn't matter but it is great because...hey, look, over there! But it is great and I am just being silly to care about plot and yeah it's great.....

And in other conversations he will take any and all female supporting characters from comic book movies, no matter how obscure, and explain why they need their own spinoff movies.....

And he explains that my story is bad for his daughter because it opens with two dudes complaining about a sensationalist TV host who happens to be a woman....

Then, yeah, I know why he is gushing about Wonder Woman. I don't hold it against him (we all have our blind spots) but I do know what is going on.
Remember when that Derbyshire guy got fired from National Review for that incredibly racist thing he wrong about why white people need to be extra-careful round those scary black guys? And Randian -- who had not yet come out of the racist closet, and officially was still merely a contrarian with anger-management issues -- started making excuses for each individual thing Derbyshire wrote, and IIRC you were the one who pointed out that, while any individual comment of Derbyshire's might be okay on its own, he'd put enough trees together to make a forest?

Same thing here with Shapiro, except you're the one straining for excuses why those trees are totally individuals and not part of a forest. Because those comments did NOT come from your buddy whom you know is not a bigot despite whatever flaws he does have. They came from Ben Shapiro the ex-Breitbart writer, setting up insulting strawmen about Black Panther fans so he could set 'em on fire in the snidest manner possible.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by lunchstealer » 19 Feb 2018, 18:32

thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:08
I'm gonna say that Black Panther is Marvel's best James Bond movie.
Black Panther Q is Best Q
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 18:39

lunchstealer wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:32
thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:08
I'm gonna say that Black Panther is Marvel's best James Bond movie.
Black Panther Q is Best Q
So say we all.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 18:44

Jennifer wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:14
thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 13:25
If my buddy keeps saying it is great and plot doesn't matter but it is great because...hey, look, over there! But it is great and I am just being silly to care about plot and yeah it's great.....

And in other conversations he will take any and all female supporting characters from comic book movies, no matter how obscure, and explain why they need their own spinoff movies.....

And he explains that my story is bad for his daughter because it opens with two dudes complaining about a sensationalist TV host who happens to be a woman....

Then, yeah, I know why he is gushing about Wonder Woman. I don't hold it against him (we all have our blind spots) but I do know what is going on.
Remember when that Derbyshire guy got fired from National Review for that incredibly racist thing he wrong about why white people need to be extra-careful round those scary black guys? And Randian -- who had not yet come out of the racist closet, and officially was still merely a contrarian with anger-management issues -- started making excuses for each individual thing Derbyshire wrote, and IIRC you were the one who pointed out that, while any individual comment of Derbyshire's might be okay on its own, he'd put enough trees together to make a forest?

Same thing here with Shapiro, except you're the one straining for excuses why those trees are totally individuals and not part of a forest. Because those comments did NOT come from your buddy whom you know is not a bigot despite whatever flaws he does have. They came from Ben Shapiro the ex-Breitbart writer, setting up insulting strawmen about Black Panther fans so he could set 'em on fire in the snidest manner possible.
I have no interest in defending Ben Shapiro. He can go fuck himself.

I will voice a certain amount of agreement.with points made by reasonable people in this thread. Certain patterns of commentary are out there, I will roll my eyes at them, and I hope Ben Shapiro stays the fuck away.

If that makes me Randian? Well, acceleration is acceleration!
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 19 Feb 2018, 19:05

thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:44
I have no interest in defending Ben Shapiro. He can go fuck himself.

I will voice a certain amount of agreement.with points made by reasonable people in this thread. Certain patterns of commentary are out there, I will roll my eyes at them, and I hope Ben Shapiro stays the fuck away.
Shapiro wasn't being snide about "certain kinds of commentary": he was being snide about people being excited to see a movie.

I am curious, though -- what are the "points made by reasonable people in this thread" that you were agreeing with? Presumably (hopefully) not Painboy saying he agreed with Shapiro, and if anybody was "butthurt" it was CLEARLY those oversensitive black folks getting all offended about Shapiro's commentary regarding their inability to understand what is and should be important to them. I'm guessing it was the comments about the annoyingness of certain white woke types? I mean, I agree they can be annoying, but that topic is a complete non-sequitur when discussing "Ben Shapiro being a snide racist dick over people excited to see a movie, and expressing his snide racist dickheadedness with laughable strawman arguments."
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 19 Feb 2018, 19:07

Sorry, I was not reading carefully enough. I thought that people were expressing annoyance with some of the commentary out there along the lines of "We've never had a black action hero before" and "This is beyond just a whole lot of fun, this is a transformative moment for society."

If people were agreeing with Ben Shapiro then I do not agree with them on that. You are right.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Mo » 19 Feb 2018, 21:42

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 14:21
Note it says things like video games being mainstream, despite Nintendo, Sega and Sony making billions in the 80s and 90s.
Well akshually...I think they're right. If you'd put that you were into Star Wars or video games on a dating profile as recently as 2008, you'd be the subject of mockery, pity, or scorn (maybe video games was a little earlier). But now dumb jocks play the AAA games as well and go see the latest nerd-based action spectacle.
That has more to do with signaling than anything else. Star Wars was the or one of the (depending on inflation adjustment) highest grossing films ever. Superman was sufficiently popular to warrant 3 sequels and Incredible Hulk ran for 5 seasons. Everybody played Mario, Zelda, Goldeneye, etc. Heck, I got randomly pulled into a conversation with the broiest dudes ever about Rainbow Six and Mechwarrior.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Painboy » 19 Feb 2018, 22:16

Jennifer wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 19:05
thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:44
I have no interest in defending Ben Shapiro. He can go fuck himself.

I will voice a certain amount of agreement.with points made by reasonable people in this thread. Certain patterns of commentary are out there, I will roll my eyes at them, and I hope Ben Shapiro stays the fuck away.
Shapiro wasn't being snide about "certain kinds of commentary": he was being snide about people being excited to see a movie.
Repeating this over and over isn't going make you any less wrong.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Aresen » 19 Feb 2018, 22:47

Painboy wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 22:16
Jennifer wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 19:05
thoreau wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:44
I have no interest in defending Ben Shapiro. He can go fuck himself.

I will voice a certain amount of agreement.with points made by reasonable people in this thread. Certain patterns of commentary are out there, I will roll my eyes at them, and I hope Ben Shapiro stays the fuck away.
Shapiro wasn't being snide about "certain kinds of commentary": he was being snide about people being excited to see a movie.
Repeating this over and over isn't going make you any less wrong.
Can we just throw both Ben Shapiro and the people he complains about into the Sarlacc?
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