To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 17 Feb 2018, 14:18

Painboy wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 14:08
thoreau wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 01:54
Ok, I saw it. I really, really liked it. Yeah, there were a few things I could nitpick, but it was a great super hero movie.

But I don't get why liberals are spooging over it. The villain is into Black Power! He's even inspired by a father who practically recites a Ta-Nehisi Coates critique of America. If people were to actually pay attention to what the characters say and do and think then it would be clear that the plot is decidedly un-woke.
The spooging is over the black cast and black director in a movie about a black superhero. There's a lot virtue signalling going on, as well as some acting like this is some momentous civil rights victory while also redefining the entire genre. I'm pretty sure the movie could have been about anything, provided the hero was portrayed in a positive light, and it would get nothing but praise from a certain quarter.
Yeah, I get all that. It's the same reason why the First Black President got nary a peep from most progressives while he ratified and expanded the practices of drone strikes, electronic surveillance, and prosecution of whistleblowers.

It's still frustrating. I mean, FFS, just pay attention to the damn plot, people! Pay attention to what the characters actually say, not just their melanin!
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 17 Feb 2018, 14:36

Black Panther was the guy who feared a black planet. His usurper cousin wanted to bring it about.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 17 Feb 2018, 18:33

thoreau wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 01:54
Ok, I saw it. I really, really liked it. Yeah, there were a few things I could nitpick, but it was a great super hero movie.

But I don't get why liberals are spooging over it.

The real mystery is why so many conservatives are so butthurt over it. This Ben Shapiro clip almost physically hurt to watch.



I remember similar butthurt when Disney released that cartoon with the black female lead, but at least the butthurt ranting about the black Disney princess was limited to the openly racist folks -- Stormfront-types, rather than Fox Newsies. But of course, the Disney move was before Trump and the Republicans brought about the Racism Renaissance.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 17 Feb 2018, 18:39

It's a movie where a warlord-king refuses to take in refugees and works with a CIA agent to stop an usurpation by a Black Power liberation guy. This is the sort of movie that conservatives would have orgasmed to in an earlier generation.

But it's also a fun action film.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 17 Feb 2018, 19:01

thoreau wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 18:39
It's a movie where a warlord-king refuses to take in refugees and works with a CIA agent to stop an usurpation by a Black Power liberation guy. This is the sort of movie that conservatives would have orgasmed to in an earlier generation.
Yeah, but it also makes black people happy and proud, which might lead to them forgetting their place, resulting in massive amounts of uppitiness. And increased levels of marijuana consumption plus the mass seduction and impregnation of white women.

Dammit, the civil rights movement gave them the right to drink from any water fountain they wanted, and they're not slaves; shouldn't that be enough? And they already have at LEAST two movies about superheroes who looked kind of like them. Isn't that enough? When will this madness end? When will they be satisfied.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Aresen » 17 Feb 2018, 19:42

Is it OK if I just go to the movie and simply enjoy the mindless violence, improbable plot and explosions without caring about the 'social significance?'
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Warren » 17 Feb 2018, 21:09

Aresen wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 19:42
Is it OK if I just go to the movie and simply enjoy the mindless violence, improbable plot and explosions without caring about the 'social significance?'
Not if you're white.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Mo » 17 Feb 2018, 23:49

I liked the movie, loved that the bad guy and the conflict wasn't some crazy unrealistically powerful big bad. The other thing that I liked is that the futuristic city still had parts that looked like a city and the source of the conflict was believable. There weren't parts that made me wonder when the movie was going to get on with it. The big weakness was that the lead was weaker than the main bad guy and some of the supporting actors.

thoreau wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 18:39
It's a movie where a warlord-king refuses to take in refugees and works with a CIA agent to stop an usurpation by a Black Power liberation guy. This is the sort of movie that conservatives would have orgasmed to in an earlier generation.

But it's also a fun action film.
Then he sees the error of their ways, decides to do urban outreach, take in refugees and open up. Also, the warrior women beat the men and that's too SJW.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 18 Feb 2018, 00:00

I spent the last half of the movie wondering if the CIA agent would turn out to be in cahoots with the usurper, who is maybe loyal to the US (or pretending to be loyal) as part of some plot to put a US special forces commando on the throne.

I am glad that they left room for that possibility, to keep up the suspense, but didn't actually go there. The resolution felt right to me
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Painboy » 18 Feb 2018, 02:50

Jennifer wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 18:33
thoreau wrote:
17 Feb 2018, 01:54
Ok, I saw it. I really, really liked it. Yeah, there were a few things I could nitpick, but it was a great super hero movie.

But I don't get why liberals are spooging over it.

The real mystery is why so many conservatives are so butthurt over it. This Ben Shapiro clip almost physically hurt to watch.



I remember similar butthurt when Disney released that cartoon with the black female lead, but at least the butthurt ranting about the black Disney princess was limited to the openly racist folks -- Stormfront-types, rather than Fox Newsies. But of course, the Disney move was before Trump and the Republicans brought about the Racism Renaissance.

I would actually agree with gist of what the Shapiro guy said (although I have no idea who the guy is). The gushing some proggies are doing over this movie is the worst kind of slacktivism. The idea that by going to this movie (and making sure everyone knows they are going to it) they are making some sort of civil rights stand is eye rolling.

I want to see it too and want it to be good, but there's no reason to treat this as some momentous event in black history. It's that same stupid idea that if black people just see a bunch of a positive black characters that they will all of sudden decide they can become astronauts instead of settling for being gas station attendants. Like Black Panther is going to single handedly raise black graduation rates or their median income. Maybe instead celebrate and bring attention to stuff that actually makes black lives better.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 18 Feb 2018, 03:13

Painboy wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 02:50

I would actually agree with gist of what the Shapiro guy said (although I have no idea who the guy is). The gushing some proggies are doing over this movie is the worst kind of slacktivism. The idea that by going to this movie (and making sure everyone knows they are going to it) they are making some sort of civil rights stand is eye rolling.
Shapiro wasn't talking about them.
I want to see it too and want it to be good, but there's no reason to treat this as some momentous event in black history. It's that same stupid idea that if black people just see a bunch of a positive black characters that they will all of sudden decide they can become astronauts instead of settling for being gas station attendants. Like Black Panther is going to single handedly raise black graduation rates or their median income. Maybe instead celebrate and bring attention to stuff that actually makes black lives better.
I haven't seen fans of the movie making those claims. There have been black people dressing up to see it, kind of like how white people dress up to see Harry Potter or Star Wars even though such activities haven't been shown to improve white graduation rates or salaries. So what?
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 18 Feb 2018, 05:08

Shapiro is now saying he liked the movie, FWIW.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 18 Feb 2018, 13:53

Jennifer wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 05:08
Shapiro is now saying he liked the movie, FWIW.

Does he have false wives?

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Painboy » 18 Feb 2018, 13:57

Jennifer wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 03:13
Shapiro wasn't talking about them.
Yes he was. It was a direct call out to that mentality.
I haven't seen fans of the movie making those claims.
I've seen it all over my Facebook feed as well as numerous articles saying as much during the run up.

Some examples:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/12/maga ... erica.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/mo ... 344917002/
https://quartzy.qz.com/1208404/black-pa ... te-people/
The Revolutionary Power Of Black Panther
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywz5 ... tant-movie

There are many many more.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Warren » 18 Feb 2018, 14:41

The 5thC crew along with Andy Levy had fun with Black Panther this week.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 18 Feb 2018, 15:31

Painboy wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 13:57
Jennifer wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 03:13
Shapiro wasn't talking about them.
Yes he was. It was a direct call out to that mentality.
I haven't seen fans of the movie making those claims.
I've seen it all over my Facebook feed as well as numerous articles saying as much during the run up.

Some examples:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/12/maga ... erica.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/mo ... 344917002/
https://quartzy.qz.com/1208404/black-pa ... te-people/
The Revolutionary Power Of Black Panther
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywz5 ... tant-movie

There are many many more.
Which part of Shapiro's speech made it plain to you that no, really, he was talking about THOSE guys? I know you're wont to cut slack to any anti-SJW critic, but not all anti-SJW criticisms are the same. And Shapiro actually was being ridiculous for getting so massively butthurt and going on a rant over the discovery that black people are OMG excited about a movie where everyone looks like them.

Granted, us white folks tend NOT to get excited over that, because for us it's a given. Which is kind of the point.

I'd be curious to ask Shapiro "How can people express excitement over this movie WITHOUT upsetting you?"
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Painboy » 18 Feb 2018, 16:24

Jennifer wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 15:31
Painboy wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 13:57
Jennifer wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 03:13
Shapiro wasn't talking about them.
Yes he was. It was a direct call out to that mentality.
I haven't seen fans of the movie making those claims.
I've seen it all over my Facebook feed as well as numerous articles saying as much during the run up.

Some examples:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/12/maga ... erica.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/mo ... 344917002/
https://quartzy.qz.com/1208404/black-pa ... te-people/
The Revolutionary Power Of Black Panther
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywz5 ... tant-movie

There are many many more.
Which part of Shapiro's speech made it plain to you that no, really, he was talking about THOSE guys? I know you're wont to cut slack to any anti-SJW critic, but not all anti-SJW criticisms are the same. And Shapiro actually was being ridiculous for getting so massively butthurt and going on a rant over the discovery that black people are OMG excited about a movie where everyone looks like them.

Granted, us white folks tend NOT to get excited over that, because for us it's a given. Which is kind of the point.

I'd be curious to ask Shapiro "How can people express excitement over this movie WITHOUT upsetting you?"
He was clearly mocking people who were acting like going to this movie was like attending the Million Man March (wanting everyone to know it as they did). He certainly didn't appear "butthurt" over it. If anything the guy who posted that tweet was butthurrt over having his little parade rained on by Shapiro. If the same people had written all this stuff about the last Thor movie you would have rightly thought they were coming at it a little high.

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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Jennifer » 18 Feb 2018, 20:12

He was clearly mocking people who were acting like going to this movie was like attending the Million Man March (wanting everyone to know it as they did).
Had Shapiro chosen to similarly mock people who were carrying on about Wonder Woman ("What, getting the vote and the right to no-fault divorce wasn't enough to make women happy? The movie Catwoman wasn't enough -- they've got to be the star of another superhero flick?") and ANYBODY who goes on about ANY such "groundbreaking" movie or pop-cultural event then I'd be more inclined to agree: nah, he's not bigoted; he's an equal-opportunity snide douchebag. But when I Googled to see Shapiro's reaction toward that movie, I found admiration for the movie and no mockery for the people excited to see it.
He certainly didn't appear "butthurt" over it. If anything the guy who posted that tweet was butthurrt over having his little parade rained on by Shapiro.
What "little parade" -- being excited over an upcoming movie release? Yeah, when black people do that it's definitely worthy of mockery by serious political pundits (as opposed to plain folk blowing steam on the internet), and probably suggests they don't understand what should and should not matter to them. Thank goodness the black community has Ben Shapiro to explain this to them, and pity so many of them chose to get "butthurrt" (with the extra R as you put it) rather than demonstrate appreciation for Shapiro's pointing out what they're doing wrong. It's especially* sneer-worthy when black folks act like it's a big deal to get a movie they can relate to in ways that white people have taken for granted since the start of the movie industry.

Here's the complete transcript of Shapiro's comment. And no, I don't think the "butthurt" label applies to black people excited about Black Panther and offended by Shapiro's commentary thereby:
“Everyone in the media [not literally everyone] is talking about the most important thing that has ever happened in the history of humanity, or at least since Caitlyn Jenner became a woman, a transgender woman, and that, of course, is the release of ‘Black Panther.’

“It is so deeply important—we’ve heard it is deeply important to millions of black Americans, who, after all, were not liberated from slavery 200 years ago and liberated by the civil rights movement with federal legislation and have not been gradually restored to what always should have been full civil rights in the United States. Alright, none of that has mattered up ’til they made a Marvel movie about a super hero who is black in a country filled with black people. That is the real, that’s the change.

“‘Blade’ was not enough. ‘Cat Woman’ with Halle Berry – no.

“Okay, ‘Wakanda’ is where it is.

“This is the most important moment in black American history. Not Martin Luther King, not Frederick Douglas, not the Civil War, not the end of Jim Crow – none of that – not Brown v. Board, the most important thing is that Chadwick Boseman puts claws on his hands and a mask on his face and runs around jumping off cars in CGI fashion.

“Deeply, deeply important. Black children everywhere will now believe that they too can be super heroes who jump off cars in fictional countries. It’s very important.

“Now, you may sense that I’m mocking a little bit. The reason I’m mocking a little bit is because I hate this kind of identity politics. I think it’s incredibly stupid.

“I think it’s incredibly stupid because, again, I grew up as an orthodox Jewish kid where no American president has been Jewish, no American president has been an orthodox Jew, and yet, I grew up on 1776, essentially worshipping the founding fathers, none of whom were Jewish.

“Alright? And yesterday, my daughter – actually it was on Shabbot. So, I was sitting around with my daughter, and my daughter was talking about how – she’s talking about the presidents because she’s learning about the president in preschool. She’s very politically active, my daughter. She’s four years old, and she knows many of the presidents. She’s familiar with the life stories of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, and she said, ‘Daddy, was George Washington Jewish?’

“And I said, ‘No, he wasn’t.’

“And she said, ‘Is Donald Trump Jewish?’

“I said, ‘No, he’s not.’

“And she said, ‘Have any of the presidents been Jewish?’

“And I said, ‘No.’

“And she said, ‘Why haven’t any of the presidents been Jewish?’

“And she’s four, so I didn’t go into the full explanation, but what I said is, ‘You know, they just haven’t been, but maybe there will be a Jewish president in the future. Would you like to be president one day?’

“She said, ‘I don’t know. It sounds boring.’

“And so, which I think is an astute observation on the part of my daughter, but the point is this: Right? If you’re not telling your kids that they can be anything in America, you’re doing something wrong as a parent. And if you had to wait until ‘Black Panther’ came out—

“Alright? We heard this about Barack Obama, when he was elected too. Now that Obama’s been elected president black Americans will feel like they too can be president. It’s a transformative moment. And yet, all we hear now is that America is deeply racist and black people are still systematical, systemically discriminated against, and that black people are still victims in American society. So it turned out it didn’t mean anything.

“When Obama was president we were told it meant everything. And then he was president for two terms – right? – reelected overwhelmingly, and then, it turns out, it didn’t mean anything because we needed Chadwick Boseman to somehow make sure that black people felt accepted in American society because a bunch of white executives at Marvel greenlit a film about black people in a fictional country in Africa.

“The insanity that has attended ‘Black Panther’ – it’s crazy.”
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 18 Feb 2018, 20:27

I'm not a huge Ben Shapiro fan, but I will say that with both Wonder Woman and Black Panther there's been a certain kind of progressive commentary that could be summarized as "I've never seen an action movie before so I will assume that this is the first time there's ever been an action movie with a [circle one: female, black] lead, so this is a cultural moment of unbelievable significance, a huge stride for [circle one: women, blacks]."

I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with people liking these movies. I loved Black Panther and thought Wonder Woman was OK. There's nothing wrong with REALLY liking them. I might not like Wonder Woman that much, but if someone else wants to have fun with it, go for it. There's nothing wrong with getting together with all of your friends to go and see it and enjoy the hero that you identify with. That's all cool.

There's a certain kind of woke commentary going beyond that, and much of it is from white men who (1) forget that there have been other fun and popular action movies with black and/or female leads and (2) act like this is more than just a shitload of fun, it's also a moment of profound significance that will reverberate way beyond Hollywood.

I don't like Ben Shapiro, so I'd rather that he not be the leader of the Eye-Roll Brigade, but I definitely roll my eyes at it.

For instance, I will go to the mat arguing that Wonder Woman had a ton of problems with the plot. I mean, come on, it's a DC movie! But I will also say without hesitation that it's the best DC movie thus far in this continuity. OTOH, I have friends who insist that it was great but can't really explain what they like, and I know them well enough to know that they're basically saying "It is a movie with A Strong Female Lead, and I choose to pretend that no such action movie has ever been made before." It's just dumb. I mean, if his wife wants to let her inner 6 year-old girl out and just love the movie because she loved Wonder Woman as a girl, that's cool. We all have silly tastes, and it's OK to be like "Yeah, sometimes I just want to like something and not over-think it." But my buddy feels the need to support that via properly Woke displays. He feels the need to argue its merits with me, but he can't quite explain what he likes, and I can just tell that he's holding back from saying "Because I am trying to be a properly feminist husband."

I'm not going to assume everyone on the internet is like my buddy; I don't know everyone on the internet. But I somehow doubt he's the only one.

That said, Black Panther is just an awesome Marvel movie. The fact that idiots like it for idiotic reasons doesn't change the fact that it's awesome.

And I do enjoy the irony of the Woke Brigade cheering for a movie where a warrior king teams up with a CIA agent to foil a radical Black Power guy. The movie would be awesome even if they weren't shattering irony meters everywhere, but it sure adds a cherry to the sundae.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Sandy » 18 Feb 2018, 22:46

Yeah, there’s any number of hyperbolic breathless paeans to both movies as the first of their kind and “everything” because apparently being a cultural critic doesn’t imply any work to become familiar with culture. With Wonder Woman it wasn’t just the first female superhero, she was the first female lead of an action movie and all the nerd boys were butthurt so yay women, even though no nerds were actually butthurt and all of them said, “weird how Sigorney Weaver ceased to exist and if she did exist we’d all hate her instead of her and those movies being incredibly popular and iconic.”

In this case, even Red Letter Media pointed out that Blade not only was made but had two sequels. It’s even a Marvel property, ffs.

Just like they took a couple of random Twitter trolls (and an article on Return of Kings, seriously) and tried to turn that into a nerd backlash against Star Wars VII, every movie seems to have unwarranted reflexive claims of “proving haters wrong,” whether haters exist or not, and whether criticism stems from gender or race or not. Bad Improv Ghostbusters and Senseless Plot Star Wars The Pointless Jedi were just hated by salty nerds from Gamergate, who also elected Trump and shot up your school and soured the milk and peed in the watering pond.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Mo » 18 Feb 2018, 23:06

I would note that Blade never had the same cultural cachet as Black Panther. Also, to use a boxing analogy, Blade was more of an undercard fight, while BP is treated as the main event.

The thing that strikes me as odd about this is that nerds in general got excited, at first, for their cultural icons hitting the mainstream without people, "Well actuallying" about Lou Ferrigno.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Mo » 18 Feb 2018, 23:26

Also, when did thoreau get a byline at Breitbart.

http://www.breitbart
.com/big-hollywood/2018/02/16/black-panther-review-great-actors-make-failure-launch/
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by thoreau » 18 Feb 2018, 23:49

Mo wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 23:26
Also, when did thoreau get a byline at Breitbart.

http://www.breitbart
.com/big-hollywood/2018/02/16/black-panther-review-great-actors-make-failure-launch/
Um, Black Panther is not Trump. Killmonger is: An usurper who speaks with a down-scale American accent, crazy hair, gold themes on his costume (Black Panther has silver), and a plan to destabilize the world.

In other words, the allegories in the movie are kind of mixed up and only go so far. On the one hand, the villain is a Black Power radical, but on the other hand he has markings of Trump.
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Warren » 19 Feb 2018, 10:05

Sandy wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 22:46
Yeah, there’s any number of hyperbolic breathless paeans to both movies as the first of their kind and “everything” because apparently being a cultural critic doesn’t imply any work to become familiar with culture. With Wonder Woman it wasn’t just the first female superhero, she was the first female lead of an action movie and all the nerd boys were butthurt so yay women, even though no nerds were actually butthurt and all of them said, “weird how Sigorney Weaver ceased to exist and if she did exist we’d all hate her instead of her and those movies being incredibly popular and iconic.”

In this case, even Red Letter Media pointed out that Blade not only was made but had two sequels. It’s even a Marvel property, ffs.

Just like they took a couple of random Twitter trolls (and an article on Return of Kings, seriously) and tried to turn that into a nerd backlash against Star Wars VII, every movie seems to have unwarranted reflexive claims of “proving haters wrong,” whether haters exist or not, and whether criticism stems from gender or race or not. Bad Improv Ghostbusters and Senseless Plot Star Wars The Pointless Jedi were just hated by salty nerds from Gamergate, who also elected Trump and shot up your school and soured the milk and peed in the watering pond.
Exactly right.
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Sandy
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Re: To Infinity War and Beyond: the MCU Thread with Spoilers

Post by Sandy » 19 Feb 2018, 12:09

Mo wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 23:06
The thing that strikes me as odd about this is that nerds in general got excited, at first, for their cultural icons hitting the mainstream without people, "Well actuallying" about Lou Ferrigno.
Was there a huge number of press articles talking about how Ang Lee was the first person to ever bring The Hulk to live action that I missed?
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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