2015: SEC football is the only real football.

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Sep 2015, 14:54

Mo wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:Especially when the starters explain to him how retributive justice works in their world.
Fin Fang Foom wrote:I imagine that being on the football team is still Ass City for benchwarmers at a D1 school, So I'd be surprised they'd sue.
I bet there would be a significant enough proportion cheering on the student. Also, there's nothing that says they have to do it during the season. Spring of senior year would be fine. Ed O'Bannon was a star in college and didn't sue until well after he graduated.
Well, sure. But that's hardly a courageous position, is it? Moreover, though I can see the argument granting standing, there's just as strong an argument that after his last football season the issue is now moot.

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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Warren » 04 Sep 2015, 00:05

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Mo wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:Especially when the starters explain to him how retributive justice works in their world.
Fin Fang Foom wrote:I imagine that being on the football team is still Ass City for benchwarmers at a D1 school, So I'd be surprised they'd sue.
I bet there would be a significant enough proportion cheering on the student. Also, there's nothing that says they have to do it during the season. Spring of senior year would be fine. Ed O'Bannon was a star in college and didn't sue until well after he graduated.
Well, sure. But that's hardly a courageous position, is it? Moreover, though I can see the argument granting standing, there's just as strong an argument that after his last football season the issue is now moot.
I don't think courageous enters into it. Mo is arguing that issuing a "no tweeting" policy is too risky because lawyers. I don't see it. There are plenty of ways a coach can punish a player that won't get anywhere near judicial review. If the coach doesn't want his players on social media, I don't think the consequences of violating their constitutional rights would give him so much as two seconds pause.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Highway » 07 Sep 2015, 20:38

So if Wisconsin's Michael Caputo doesn't go line up in the Alabama backfield, how many more times does he get his head smacked before someone figures out he had a concussion?
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Kolohe » 08 Sep 2015, 09:39

Well, at least the Hokies played a quarter of good football.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by JasonL » 08 Sep 2015, 10:12

Hard to do much with defending champions when you lose your qb.

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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Highway » 08 Sep 2015, 15:55

Thowing these high school kids in here, too, because we definitely don't need a thread for high school football.

When I first saw it I was thinking "Yeah, that's pretty awful, they should get kicked out of the game, probably kicked off the team for the year." But the reaction everywhere is "They should be criminally prosecuted for assault", "They should never play football again at any level", "They should be kicked out of school!" And I'm thinking "whoa whoa whoa".

Am I just being soft on some kids? I'm certainly not arguing that what they did is acceptable in any way. But I kinda want to know more about it. I know they were all ticked off about some calls they thought were bad. But whose idea was hitting the ref? Cause I'm sure it was discussed. What are the power issues going on here. Did the captain of the team say "You guys should do this" and they felt like they couldn't say no? Did the coach say to, or even imply that something should happen to that ref? I just think there's a lot more here than just "Throw them out forever!"
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2015, 16:01

$10 says it was a coach.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 08 Sep 2015, 16:14

Mo wrote:$10 says it was a coach.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Sep 2015, 18:16

Highway wrote:Thowing these high school kids in here, too, because we definitely don't need a thread for high school football.

When I first saw it I was thinking "Yeah, that's pretty awful, they should get kicked out of the game, probably kicked off the team for the year." But the reaction everywhere is "They should be criminally prosecuted for assault", "They should never play football again at any level", "They should be kicked out of school!" And I'm thinking "whoa whoa whoa".

Am I just being soft on some kids? I'm certainly not arguing that what they did is acceptable in any way. But I kinda want to know more about it. I know they were all ticked off about some calls they thought were bad. But whose idea was hitting the ref? Cause I'm sure it was discussed. What are the power issues going on here. Did the captain of the team say "You guys should do this" and they felt like they couldn't say no? Did the coach say to, or even imply that something should happen to that ref? I just think there's a lot more here than just "Throw them out forever!"
I'm definitely OK with not prosecuting them for a crime, although they have to know that that kind of blindside hit is fucking dangerous. I did point out that the team should face a really serious consequence along the lines of that's-it-for-their-season, or they forfeit the next four games or whatever.

My thinking is that from the video, it really does look like a coordinated plan, where one of the guys probably said, "Fuck that ref, I'm gonna put him on the grass next play," and the other guy decided to get in on the action. If that's the case, then they felt comfortable talking like that and then putting it into action. That's a serious failure in the organization. Teams should be self-policing their players to keep them cool-headed. That's one of the supposed benefits of team sports in school; to teach teamwork and cooperation. Working together to possibly seriously injure a ref is the kind of teamwork that you just can't let slide, and the message needs to be sent to the entire team. It really looks as if the team is fucked up and needs to be set straight as an organization, and it should be set straight very publicly. Not for witch-hunt purposes - I'm pretty sure nobody in the staff actually told them to do it - but for the purposes of reminding coaches to put some damned effort into making sure that their kids know what lines not to cross, and what lines you don't even look at in the distance with fucking binoculars.

If the team isn't fucked up and this really was two fucked up kids being fucked up with no input from the rest of the team, well, it's a team sport, you win as a team, you lose as a team. Them's the breaks.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Mo » 08 Sep 2015, 20:05

Interesting. Assistant coach said the ref "needed to pay for cheating us" and the players allege that he used a racial slur (I don't buy the latter claim).
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Sep 2015, 22:06

Mo wrote:Interesting. Assistant coach said the ref "needed to pay for cheating us" and the players allege that he used a racial slur (I don't buy the latter claim).
Yeah, I am still thinking something like a two-game suspension/forfeit for the entire team is in order. There can be an investigation to see if the racial slur accusation is true, but regardless, there's a lot of value in every coach in the state (and probably nation) seeing that kind of coordinated assault as a team problem, not as a player problem. Groups of teens in this kind of situation will reinforce group behavior in one way or another. It can either be working to keep their collective shit together, or mutually reinforcing the kind of shit-talking bravado that leads to these kinds of errors in judgement. Making sure that everyone has a stake in keeping things cool and has skin in the game if things turn really south like this is a reasonable way to make football work in the way its supporters claim it does - promoting teamwork and leadership. I mean, it's always been mostly bullshit, anyway, but as long as we're going to keep up the pretense, we might as well give it the old high school try.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Warren » 08 Sep 2015, 22:56

I think they have different rules in TX.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 08 Sep 2015, 23:08

I was pleasantly surprised at both Cardale being the starter and the amount and quality of Braxton's play.

And dat spin move tho: http://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal ... ginia-tech


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 23 Sep 2015, 23:17

I don't think people (like Nick Gillespie) have really thought through the ramifications of decoupling college athletics from college. Making it a private club system is an excellent way to ensure no more somewhat talented poor kids get a shot at a subsidized education.


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Mo » 24 Sep 2015, 09:07

FBS players graduate at a rate of ~55% and I a significant proportion of those (if not a majority) are either a) graduating in fields with no marketable skills or b) have completely sham diplomas. I believe big time hoops is the same way.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Warren » 24 Sep 2015, 09:09

Randroid 2.0 wrote:I don't think people (like Nick Gillespie) have really thought through the ramifications of decoupling college athletics from college. Making it a private club system is an excellent way to ensure no more somewhat talented poor kids get a shot at a subsidized education.


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Huh??
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 24 Sep 2015, 21:35

Mo wrote:FBS players graduate at a rate of ~55% and I a significant proportion of those (if not a majority) are either a) graduating in fields with no marketable skills or b) have completely sham diplomas. I believe big time hoops is the same way.
How on earth can you define "sham diploma", especially in an age of credentialing? And what would their graduation rate be without the scholarships? They probably never would have entered school.

It's also worth mentioning that player pay is silly and impossible to figure out. Who gets paid and how much? Only schools that actually make money? Only star players in sports in schools that actually make money?


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 24 Sep 2015, 21:36

Warren wrote:
Randroid 2.0 wrote:I don't think people (like Nick Gillespie) have really thought through the ramifications of decoupling college athletics from college. Making it a private club system is an excellent way to ensure no more somewhat talented poor kids get a shot at a subsidized education.


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Huh??
You'll have to be more specific.


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 24 Sep 2015, 21:37

Randroid 2.0 wrote:
Warren wrote:
Randroid 2.0 wrote:I don't think people (like Nick Gillespie) have really thought through the ramifications of decoupling college athletics from college. Making it a private club system is an excellent way to ensure no more somewhat talented poor kids get a shot at a subsidized education.


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Huh??
You'll have to be more specific.


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 24 Sep 2015, 21:41

Heh.

I never understood why it's acceptable to peddle in gross stereotypes when it comes to this subject. "Well, you know, these jocks are just shamming and will be big failures after school is over. Nerds rule!"

Is that really a fantastic argument for eliminating college athletics?

Also, there's a whole free association problem here. How do you decouple athletics from universities without forcing them to be decoupled? You can't.


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Mo » 24 Sep 2015, 22:10

Randroid 2.0 wrote:
Mo wrote:FBS players graduate at a rate of ~55% and I a significant proportion of those (if not a majority) are either a) graduating in fields with no marketable skills or b) have completely sham diplomas. I believe big time hoops is the same way.
How on earth can you define "sham diploma", especially in an age of credentialing? And what would their graduation rate be without the scholarships? They probably never would have entered school.
Here are sham diplomas.
Randroid 2.0 wrote:It's also worth mentioning that player pay is silly and impossible to figure out. Who gets paid and how much? Only schools that actually make money? Only star players in sports in schools that actually make money?
I would suspect that teams could manage to grab a hold of the same wizardry that professional sports teams use to figure out who pays players and how much they are paid. Minor league baseball and even the socialists in Europe have figured out how to pay junior players and how much to pay them. Or is it just, "free markets are good (except when it may affect OSU football)!"
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by tr0g » 24 Sep 2015, 23:25

Can somebody tell me what the overall graduation rate for freshmen entering college is? Oh, look the 6 year rate for 2013 is 59%. And FBS athletes are at 55%? Umm, who fucking cares? The FBS is doing about as well as the state of Oregon (55.5%). I'm not gonna call that anything that matters.
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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 24 Sep 2015, 23:32

tr0g wrote:Can somebody tell me what the overall graduation rate for freshmen entering college is? Oh, look the 6 year rate for 2013 is 59%. And FBS athletes are at 55%? Umm, who fucking cares? The FBS is doing about as well as the state of Oregon (55.5%). I'm not gonna call that anything that matters.
For that matter, one might reasonably ask about some FBS schools whether any of their diplomas aren't shams.

That said, ordinary freshmen are not, in general, highly recruited, given special schedules, tutors and all too often special treatment by designated faculty members and yet, with all those special favors, still flunk out.

There are quite a few state schools that essentially take all in-state (and/or full tuition paying) students and flunk them out rather than face the wrath of state legislatures. But, again, one can at least argue that those students are victims of an indifferent system, not one that intentionally exploits them for financial gain and discards them as soon as their market value plummets.

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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 25 Sep 2015, 00:14

Mo wrote:
Randroid 2.0 wrote:
Mo wrote:FBS players graduate at a rate of ~55% and I a significant proportion of those (if not a majority) are either a) graduating in fields with no marketable skills or b) have completely sham diplomas. I believe big time hoops is the same way.
How on earth can you define "sham diploma", especially in an age of credentialing? And what would their graduation rate be without the scholarships? They probably never would have entered school.
Here are sham diplomas.
Randroid 2.0 wrote:It's also worth mentioning that player pay is silly and impossible to figure out. Who gets paid and how much? Only schools that actually make money? Only star players in sports in schools that actually make money?
I would suspect that teams could manage to grab a hold of the same wizardry that professional sports teams use to figure out who pays players and how much they are paid. Minor league baseball and even the socialists in Europe have figured out how to pay junior players and how much to pay them. Or is it just, "free markets are good (except when it may affect OSU football)!"
How is the current system not free market?

I should have clarified that I was talking about player pay assuming athletics remain at colleges. Because, let's face it, short of outlawing college athletics, there will be college athletics. And if you're talking about paying those college athletes, you're afoul of Title IX if you pay the players what they're worth.

OSU would be one of those teams that would be just fine either way. Break off into NFL-minor and there's still going to be an OSU football team tomorrow. Ohio State actually is one of those programs that nets money. Most athletic programs don't.


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Re: 2015: SEC football is the only real football.

Post by Randroid 2.0 » 25 Sep 2015, 00:16

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
tr0g wrote:Can somebody tell me what the overall graduation rate for freshmen entering college is? Oh, look the 6 year rate for 2013 is 59%. And FBS athletes are at 55%? Umm, who fucking cares? The FBS is doing about as well as the state of Oregon (55.5%). I'm not gonna call that anything that matters.
For that matter, one might reasonably ask about some FBS schools whether any of their diplomas aren't shams.

That said, ordinary freshmen are not, in general, highly recruited, given special schedules, tutors and all too often special treatment by designated faculty members and yet, with all those special favors, still flunk out.

There are quite a few state schools that essentially take all in-state (and/or full tuition paying) students and flunk them out rather than face the wrath of state legislatures. But, again, one can at least argue that those students are victims of an indifferent system, not one that intentionally exploits them for financial gain and discards them as soon as their market value plummets.
So are they pampered or "exploited" (loaded language alert)?


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