John Oliver we can agree with

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the innominate one
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 09 Jun 2016, 23:32

I thought this was pretty good. It even criticizes Obama and some democrats and gives grudging acknowledgement that Cruz and Rand Paul are right about something:



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Kolohe
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Kolohe » 10 Jun 2016, 08:57

I'm surprised that Bee didn't mention that Graham *is* a military lawyer.

She also, of course, completely glosses over the fact that *all* military justice passes through, at some point, unit commanders, who have an interest in the unit as well as an interest in 'justice'. And, as a point of fact, have a much lower standard to find someone 'guilty' than a real live court. But also have a limited set of crimes they can adjudicate and punishments they can dish out before it needs to be kicked up to a higher level and a real justice system with adversarial procedures and impartial judges. (that's the complicated flow chart)
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the innominate one
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 10 Jun 2016, 09:11

Graham being a military lawyer makes him and his argument look worse, so, yeah, I guess she should have mentioned that. The fact that commanders have an incentive in conflict with the interest in justice that most people have is more pertinent than pointing out an interest in justice that, again, most people have, and can be considered a given. Plus, this is specifically about rape. Seems like a crime that should be handled by specialists, especially since reports suggest that the current process is lacking.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Warren » 10 Jun 2016, 12:59

The problem is insisting on a fiction of one military where men and women are all same same.
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the innominate one
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 10 Jun 2016, 19:45

That fiction is indeed fictional, but what shouldn't be fictional is a military where men and women are treated the same and held to the same standards. And also one where sexual assault is taken seriously and accusations of such are handled appropriately.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Warren » 10 Jun 2016, 19:52

the innominate one wrote:That fiction is indeed fictional, but what shouldn't be fictional is a military where men and women are treated the same and held to the same standards. And also one where sexual assault is taken seriously and accusations of such are handled appropriately.
Okay. So are you willing to put them in the same uniforms, with the same grooming standards? Are you going to berth them in the same spaces? Are you going to hold them to the same physical readiness standards? Are you going to make Sea/Shore rotation the same for male and female sailors? If a mans wife is pregnant, will he be excused from forward deployment, or if a female is pregnant will you send her into combat? Or alternatively, force her to terminate the pregnancy? In short, are you willing to treat women the same as men and hold them to the same standards across the board?
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by lunchstealer » 10 Jun 2016, 22:51

Warren wrote:
the innominate one wrote:That fiction is indeed fictional, but what shouldn't be fictional is a military where men and women are treated the same and held to the same standards. And also one where sexual assault is taken seriously and accusations of such are handled appropriately.
Okay. So are you willing to put them in the same uniforms, with the same grooming standards? Are you going to berth them in the same spaces? Are you going to hold them to the same physical readiness standards? Are you going to make Sea/Shore rotation the same for male and female sailors? If a mans wife is pregnant, will he be excused from forward deployment, or if a female is pregnant will you send her into combat? Or alternatively, force her to terminate the pregnancy? In short, are you willing to treat women the same as men and hold them to the same standards across the board?
What does any of that have to do with not prosecuting sexual assault? Are you saying that the sexual assault problem is caused by having men and women serve in the same military while not having the same dress code? Should we solve the sexual assault problem by keeping the women soldiers strictly segregated from the men soldiers, unless they're accomanied by a male relative?
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Warren » 10 Jun 2016, 23:15

lunchstealer wrote:
Warren wrote:
the innominate one wrote:That fiction is indeed fictional, but what shouldn't be fictional is a military where men and women are treated the same and held to the same standards. And also one where sexual assault is taken seriously and accusations of such are handled appropriately.
Okay. So are you willing to put them in the same uniforms, with the same grooming standards? Are you going to berth them in the same spaces? Are you going to hold them to the same physical readiness standards? Are you going to make Sea/Shore rotation the same for male and female sailors? If a mans wife is pregnant, will he be excused from forward deployment, or if a female is pregnant will you send her into combat? Or alternatively, force her to terminate the pregnancy? In short, are you willing to treat women the same as men and hold them to the same standards across the board?
What does any of that have to do with not prosecuting sexual assault? Are you saying that the sexual assault problem is caused by having men and women serve in the same military while not having the same dress code? Should we solve the sexual assault problem by keeping the women soldiers strictly segregated from the men soldiers, unless they're accomanied by a male relative?
To answer your last question first, segregation would be a step in the right direction. It doesn't need to be that strict, but I think separate services, i.e. WACS, WAVS, works better. I know there were problems with the female services not getting funded and opportunities for advancement. But I think those problems should have been addressed individually instead of putting men and women in the same service and then creating a fiction that women are the same as men while having a bunch of exceptions and addendum, that make it not the same at all.

The other thing, is while I keep hearing about sexual assault is rampant in the service, that was not my experience at all. And this was back in the 80's. Women in the work place in the military was a HUGE stress. It was like you're hearing about how it is on campus now. A woman makes an accusation, and now there has to be an investigation, and the guy is guilty until proven innocent because that's pretty much the way military justice works.

I keep hearing that it's SOP to make the accusers' life difficult and tell them to shut up about it. Maybe that's true, I wouldn't know. But I do know that it's asking for trouble to shove men and women into the same workplace with a bunch of special rules for women, and then pretend that they're doing the same job and competing on equal terms.

To clarify. There's no excuse for sexual assault or sexual harassment. That should not be tolerated. All I'm saying is that we've created an environment where that is a predictable and foreseeable unintended consequence.
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the innominate one
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 12 Jun 2016, 01:01

This bunch of irrelevancies and non sequiturs doesn't merit any further response.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Jennifer » 12 Jun 2016, 12:34

But I do know that it's asking for trouble to shove men and women into the same workplace with a bunch of special rules for women, and then pretend that they're doing the same job and competing on equal terms.
So you're saying male-on-female rape wouldn't be such a problem in the military, if only women in the military were required to do the same number of push-ups as the men?
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 12 Jun 2016, 13:39

It is difficult not to draw the conclusion that Warren thinks that military servicemen are akin to those Muslim men who believe they should not have to control themselves, therefore women must avoid inflaming their lust.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by thoreau » 12 Jun 2016, 13:50

I can see how unequal standards and officially enshrined sex/gender disparities might cause certain morale problems. Rape is way above and beyond a morale problem, and it's ludicrous to blame it on requiring women to do fewer push-ups or whatever.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Jennifer » 12 Jun 2016, 13:56

Thing I don't get is, even if we assume "women must meet lower physical-strength standards" explains the prevalence of the military's male-on-female rape, it still doesn't explain the problem of male-on-male rape, from which the military also suffers. Is it, like, a situation wherein the male rape victims tend to be significantly older than their attackers? I'm pretty sure the military fitness standards for a 40-year-old male are lower than for a 21-year-old. Perhaps the youngsters keep raping the middle-aged guys because they're pissed off about having to pretend their elders are doing the same job and competing on equal terms?
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 12 Jun 2016, 15:33

Physical fitness requirements do decrease as the service member gets older. The rest of this comment is my opinion based on conversations with officers and senior NCOs over the years I worked for the Navy, Air Force, Army and DoD.

The Navy has some unique problems the other uniformed services do not have or have to a lesser degree. Long stretches of sea duty with young, all male sailors living in very close proximity to one another will always lead to a certain amount of institutional homosexuality, aka sodomy; hence, the old quip about the British Navy operating on "sodomy, rum and the lash." The availability of vaginas does little more than reduce the institutional homosexuality and almost certainly leads to an increase in overall sexual congress, voluntary or not. (The Navy also distinguishes roles within the service more directly and distinctly than the other services. If you're not a line officer, you don't ever get to drive the boat. Thus, e.g, in a crisis, a LT JG line officer would outrank a Commander in the Supply Corps for purposes of temporary command of the combat vessel they were on.)

Pregnancy and early infant care raise additional problems. Female service member have been known to become pregnant rather than face an unwanted deployment, and even if there is no intentional goldbricking, a number of male service members will resent the disparate treatment.

Really, though, excepting the Marines, who are all barking dog crazy, the only serious question is whether a service member in a combat position is deployable. The majority of service members are in the "tail" of the "tooth to tail" ratio; that is, they serve in some sort of logistical or support capacity, anyway, so the question of how far they can throw a grenade or how many pull ups they can do is for the most part irrelevant. Were it up to me, I'd say anyone who can meet bona fide minimum physical conditions, whatever they may be, should at least on those grounds be deployable.

I get why women want to be, at least in principle, eligible for all combat roles; it's a major factor in promotion and advancement. But if the question is one of brute physical strength, e.g., in the infantry, it seems to me that the Army should be able to say, male or female, if you can't throw the grenade far enough, you don't qualify. Ceteris paribus, color blind people can't be pilots, and while I know that even hinting that being a woman should be regarded as some sort of disability is wrong, the point remains that the only legitimate basis of attacking service qualifications is that they're not rationally related to the actual duty required.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by the innominate one » 12 Jun 2016, 15:48

Color blind individuals also aren't permitted to work on electronics, which is why my dad ended up in the bursar's office in the navy. His brother is a master electrician, so presumably he's not color blind.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Jennifer » 14 Jun 2016, 13:13

the innominate one wrote:Color blind individuals also aren't permitted to work on electronics, which is why my dad ended up in the bursar's office in the navy. His brother is a master electrician, so presumably he's not color blind.
In that case, it's only to be expected that military personnel with normal color vision are gonna start raping the shit out of the colorblind, if they haven't done so already.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by JasonL » 14 Jun 2016, 15:15

Last one was about the DOL fiduciary rule. I can't talk about it but to say some stuff accurate some stuff left out. Blah.

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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Ellie » 15 Jun 2016, 14:36

I haven't watched that John Oliver takes on gun control blah blah Australia something something clip that's floating around Facebook. I got it described in detail to me by my supervisors, though. It sounded like 40% content and 60% "gotcha!"/creative editing.

Edited to add: not sure how accurate their description was, as one of them kept calling him Tom Colbert. :lol:
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Hugh Akston » 14 Sep 2016, 14:35

For Rachel

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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Rachel » 14 Sep 2016, 17:26

That was awesome! Thank you for posting.
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Warren
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Warren » 14 Sep 2016, 21:56

Woodland song birds are nice to have around.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Aresen » 14 Sep 2016, 23:26

Chickens are nice.

Once they're decapitated, defeathered, gutted and roasted.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by lunchstealer » 15 Sep 2016, 03:42

Geese can fucking die in a fire.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Warren » 15 Sep 2016, 17:18

lunchstealer wrote:Geese can fucking die in a fire.
Fine with me. But I'm also good with beheading and roasting their flesh with fire.
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Re: John Oliver we can agree with

Post by Jennifer » 15 Sep 2016, 19:03

Geese are like perpetual motion machines only producing shit rather than energy. And those malicious little bastards shit the same shade of green as park grass, too.

Also, one of the very first newspaper articles I ever had to write, shortly after getting my very-first newspaper job, was about how a local (Plymouth, Connecticut), swimming hole/lake had to be closed due high levels of e-coli and other nasties, blamed in part on the enormous quantities of goose shit that ended up in the water.
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