Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Andrew » 22 Aug 2016, 11:25

Fin Fang Foom wrote:Everything I see about this tells me, "just walk away."
Especially if your name is Renée.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 22 Aug 2016, 11:41

Andrew wrote:
Fin Fang Foom wrote:Everything I see about this tells me, "just walk away."
Especially if your name is Renée.
Renee Humongous?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 22 Aug 2016, 12:05

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:Before you jump to remind me of the Torgensen and Correia statements that I already said I disagree with, understand that I'm merely calling for a multi-dimensional view of people who, for whatever reason, were willing to vote against some of the non-Puppy nominees.
I think you might have give around the bend with your disclaimers, again, because i don't know what exact actions you're saying we shouldn't judge. The Puppies had slates, not most of the nominees. And you vote in the Hugos by ranking nominees in order of preference.

I actually didn't get a chance to read and vote this year after I got the packet - not enough energy after work. But, from last year's reading, I noticed a really consistent pattern about the works that Puppy folks ballyhooed and condemned: they were, respectively, shit and decent-to-very-good writing. That's pretty much to be expected about ideological struggles against art, but the evidence is useful to have.

As to the issue beyond the Puppies, the dreaded Ess Jay Dubyas...I can only give a hearty "meh". If someone worries about whether the SJWs like a book and lets that color their feelings of the book's value, I have to rate that opinion at the level of a dumb liberal kid's yaps about how Starship Troopers is a Nazi tract. Doubly so if one hasn't read it, because that's completely going down one's own political correctness rabbit hole,.

And I don't know if it's a dog-whistle, but I get skeptical of people who bridle or roll their eyes at mentions of racial/sexual/etc. equality, just as I do for the people who react the same way to mentions of freedom and liberty. I don't think that's terribly unfair, and I don't care about the "Oh, the SJWs/the Republicans poisoned the well" excuses. Freedom and tolerance are good things. If someon turns out to be genuinely against one or both, I just don't care why, anymore. They are a fuck I'm comfortable writing off until and unless they unfuck themselves.
Upon further reflection, I should withdraw my comments. There's enough that I don't know about the Hugos, so maybe they aren't the best example for the thing I'm picking up in the zeitgeist.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Aug 2016, 13:51

thoreau wrote:Upon further reflection, I should withdraw my comments. There's enough that I don't know about the Hugos, so maybe they aren't the best example for the thing I'm picking up in the zeitgeist.
To long-story-short-it, each category gets a handful of nominations. Voters rank them in preference, the math gets crunched, and the awards go to the winner.

The Puppies put up slates to tell supporters who to vote for that is a proper SF writer and not a dirty SJW... and the acceptable votes were for mostly-terrible works, often by a few writers in their clique.. (To try to build a narrative that they were doing anything else, they worked in a few choices further afield, from Guardians of the Galaxy to Space Raptor Butt Invasion.) They aren't backing good works denied a fair shake by the Left-Wing Powers That Be, they're basically pushing shit that falls within a political comfort zone.

ETA: Basically, one more case of the Right adopting classically Left-wing approaches, this century.

The stuff they valiantly struggle against, in contrast, has both struck me as pretty good and failed to make me hiss like a vampire in church. I mean, you read The Three Body Problem (which won last year). How oppressive was its critical theorizing? :)

On the plus side, I think we can stick a fork in the Puppies and the whole debate. Not only did the E Pluribus Hugo revised voting scheme (the PDF I tossed you last year) get approved, it looks like the Puppies last year were a flash in the pan. Apparently, a lot of the ones who voted last year didn't bother to pay up and vote again this year, judging by a collapse in numbers between Puppy nominations and actual votes, this year:

https://chaoshorizon.wordpress.com/2016 ... -analysis/

(Buying in one year by attending WorldCon or buying a cheaper membership lets you vote that year and send in your nominations the next year.)
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 22 Aug 2016, 14:09

Eric the .5b wrote:The Puppies put up slates to tell supporters who to vote for that is a proper SF writer and not a dirty SJW... and the acceptable votes were for mostly-terrible works, often by a few writers in their clique.
My favorite "bad" example I recall from last year's puppy slate -- and this is something objectively bad, not even a matter of opinion -- IIRC, one of the pieces Vox Day nominated for himself to be "best editor" was edited so badly that, among other things, the chapters weren't even numbered properly. Two consecutive chapters four, if I recall.

But, of course, the puppies and their supporters will swear the fact that this piece didn't win is proof that the dreaded SJWs are bigoted against right-wing white guys.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Aug 2016, 20:11

I like that one. Sometime, it's not about the answer, but the comedy of the question.

(I should get around to reading this year's packet, even if it's too late to be a pebble.)
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 13:35

A relatively polite Puppy fan has been debating me on Twitter; he seems incapable of grasping the notion "If my preferred type of story isn't winning awards anymore, that doesn't necessarily prove a conspiracy against me -- it could simply be that other people's tastes have changed." If I viewed music the way puppies view science fiction, I'd conclude that a vast anti-me conspiracy is the only possible reason grunge music no longer wins Grammy awards (and Goth music never did).
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by tr0g » 23 Aug 2016, 14:41

Them giving best novel to Jemisin validates a lot of puppy complaints. She's flat fucking racist, but hey, she's black and lefty, so it's cool. It's only those other regressive racists we don't like. Prog racists are totes cool!
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 23 Aug 2016, 14:44

Is her book any good? That would seem to be a relevant issue.

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 14:45

tr0g wrote:Them giving best novel to Jemisin validates a lot of puppy complaints. She's flat fucking racist, but hey, she's black and lefty, so it's cool. It's only those other regressive racists we don't like. Prog racists are totes cool!
Serious question: Where does this "Jemisin is a racist" thing come from? Whenever I Google her name plus racism or racist, the only results are the utterly wretched things Vox Day said about her. I asked Sandy on the other thread, and the only example he could give was her complaining about racism in Australia -- which IMO is not her engaged in racism, but complaining about it. Can you give me examples of actual racist things she's said or written?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by tr0g » 23 Aug 2016, 14:49

thoreau wrote:Is her book any good? That would seem to be a relevant issue.

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When part of your narrative is "these people are horrible racists trying to destroy our award" it would help to not give the award to your own horrible racist. I can't say if it's good. Haven't read that one. I did read her Inheritance Trilogy. The first one was also a Hugo nom and is the least subtle racial holy war fantasy since The Turner Diaries.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 23 Aug 2016, 14:56

Did her unsubtle race war fantasy win?

I have a bit of sympathy when people complain that there is a certain type of lefty who will get overly effusive in praising favored mediocrities if their ideology and background are sympathetic. I have seen a bit of that myself in my own field. But if you want to make that critique then it helps if you can point out that the novel was actually mediocre.

It may be that her past work was mediocre. That does not mean that this novel is mediocre. For instance, Neal Stephenson was nominated for Seveneves, which I think was outstanding. He also wrote The Big U, which was nowhere in the same league.

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:01

tr0g wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is her book any good? That would seem to be a relevant issue.

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When part of your narrative is "these people are horrible racists trying to destroy our award" it would help to not give the award to your own horrible racist. I can't say if it's good. Haven't read that one. I did read her Inheritance Trilogy. The first one was also a Hugo nom and is the least subtle racial holy war fantasy since The Turner Diaries.
What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy? I'm more than willing to consider the possibility that she really is as racist as the Puppy fans say, but I'd like to see some actual examples of racism from her, rather than settle for secondhand reassurances that she really is racist enough for Vox Day to land on the side of the angels in opposing her.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 23 Aug 2016, 15:03

Jennifer wrote:
tr0g wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is her book any good? That would seem to be a relevant issue.

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When part of your narrative is "these people are horrible racists trying to destroy our award" it would help to not give the award to your own horrible racist. I can't say if it's good. Haven't read that one. I did read her Inheritance Trilogy. The first one was also a Hugo nom and is the least subtle racial holy war fantasy since The Turner Diaries.
What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy? I'm more than willing to consider the possibility that she really is as racist as the Puppy fans say, but I'd like to see some actual examples of racism from her, rather than settle for secondhand reassurances that she really is racist enough for Vox Day to land on the side of the angels in opposing her.
Jennifer, have you ever read any of the non-Rabid puppies complaints? Or is your position that all puppies are simply Vox Day bootlickers, and if so, why?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:06

Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
tr0g wrote:
thoreau wrote:Is her book any good? That would seem to be a relevant issue.

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When part of your narrative is "these people are horrible racists trying to destroy our award" it would help to not give the award to your own horrible racist. I can't say if it's good. Haven't read that one. I did read her Inheritance Trilogy. The first one was also a Hugo nom and is the least subtle racial holy war fantasy since The Turner Diaries.
What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy? I'm more than willing to consider the possibility that she really is as racist as the Puppy fans say, but I'd like to see some actual examples of racism from her, rather than settle for secondhand reassurances that she really is racist enough for Vox Day to land on the side of the angels in opposing her.
Jennifer, have you ever read any of the non-Rabid puppies complaints? Or is your position that all puppies are simply Vox Day bootlickers, and if so, why?
I have indeed read their complaints, and they all boil down to "I like this particular type of sf, so of course it deserves to win!"

Can you offer some examples of Jemisin actually being racist? On the other thread, I explained why I was not remotely convinced by that speech she gave in Australia. What else is there?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 23 Aug 2016, 15:12

Sandy wrote:Jennifer, have you ever read any of the non-Rabid puppies complaints? Or is your position that all puppies are simply Vox Day bootlickers, and if so, why?
There are people on this forum who are saying that N.K. Jemisin is a racist, and I'm pretty sure that they aren't Rabid Puppies. I'd like to hear the justification for their complaints. Perhaps it was a bit hyperbolic for Jennifer to invoke Vox Day, but regardless of her rhetorical misstep the fact remains that the topic of conversation here is a complaint made by people besides Vox Day.

My questions are:
1) First and foremost, is the award-winning book any good?
2) Is N.K. Jemisin a bigot in any sense beyond the usual SJW bullshit? I see little evidence of that in the bits about Australia cited here.
3) How much should anyone care about views that an author expresses outside of their writings? I enjoy a lot of art and entertainment produced by people that I might disagree with on politics. I think it's best to not dig too deeply into a writer's personal views.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 23 Aug 2016, 15:17

Jennifer wrote:I have indeed read their complaints, and they all boil down to "I like this particular type of sf, so of course it deserves to win!"
Your reading comprehension is poor.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:19

Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:I have indeed read their complaints, and they all boil down to "I like this particular type of sf, so of course it deserves to win!"
Your reading comprehension is poor.
Can you give me an example of a racist thing Jemisin has written or said?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:30

Sandy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:I have indeed read their complaints, and they all boil down to "I like this particular type of sf, so of course it deserves to win!"
Your reading comprehension is poor.
Also -- serious question, again -- what other way is there to summarize such complaints as what Brad Torgensen made last year (cut and pasted from earlier on this thread):
https://bradrtorgersen .wordpress.com/2015/02/04/sad-puppies-3-the-unraveling-of-an-unreliable-field/
A few decades ago, if you saw a lovely spaceship on a book cover, with a gorgeous planet in the background, you could be pretty sure you were going to get a rousing space adventure featuring starships and distant, amazing worlds. If you saw a barbarian swinging an axe? You were going to get a rousing fantasy epic with broad-chested heroes who slay monsters, and run off with beautiful women. Battle-armored interstellar jump troops shooting up alien invaders? Yup. A gritty military SF war story, where the humans defeat the odds and save the Earth. And so on, and so forth.

These days, you can’t be sure.

The book has a spaceship on the cover, but is it really going to be a story about space exploration and pioneering derring-do? Or is the story merely about racial prejudice and exploitation, with interplanetary or interstellar trappings?

There’s a sword-swinger on the cover, but is it really about knights battling dragons? Or are the dragons suddenly the good guys, and the sword-swingers are the oppressive colonizers of Dragon Land?

A planet, framed by a galactic backdrop. Could it be an actual bona fide space opera? Heroes and princesses and laser blasters? No, wait. It’s about sexism and the oppression of women.

Finally, a book with a painting of a person wearing a mechanized suit of armor! Holding a rifle! War story ahoy! Nope, wait. It’s actually about gay and transgender issues.

Or it could be about the evils of capitalism and the despotism of the wealthy.

Do you see what I am trying to say here?
If Torgensen prefers pulpy adventure stories with no "social messages" or "deeper meanings," that's fine. But if other people actually like social-message stories, to the point where such stories actually win awards because enough people voted for them, why is THAT a problem?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 23 Aug 2016, 15:38

I think it's more than adequately established that Torgensen is full of shit. We should be more interested in the merits or demerits of complaints raised by people here, not by Brad Torgensen.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by tr0g » 23 Aug 2016, 15:40

Jennifer wrote:What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy?
The first volume is explicitly a racial holy war. The white god keeps the other gods enslaved, including the black god who is just as powerful as him, in bondage to a white ruling class who rule over the world (The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms) by the power this gives them. Everybody revolts due to main character (black woman) becoming the reincarnation of a murdered goddess. White god is cast down, white ruling class cast down, the black god is raised up supreme and the multicultural people take over. Justice is served, woohoo. This is not an exaggeration. It's as subtle as The Turner Diaries. There's a whole thing about how pure your blood is as a member of the ruling caste and all the rest of it. Seriously, it's like getting hit in the face with a brick labeled "Institutionalized Racism".

Book two is about how all the mixed race people were killed under white god rule because they were a threat but one or two survived, again to cast the current order into disarray.

The third book was actually the most interesting, but also the weakest.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:49

thoreau wrote:I think it's more than adequately established that Torgensen is full of shit. We should be more interested in the merits or demerits of complaints raised by people here, not by Brad Torgensen.
Reminder: I posted that in response to Sandy's question about whether I'd read any Sad (not Rabid) puppy complaints. If it's unfair to criticize the Rabid Puppies, and also beyond the pale to criticize the Sad ones, then what exactly is left, here? Even ignoring the outright unapologetic racism of Vox Day and his ilk, what's left that I can see boils down to "Stories I like are not winning; stories I don't like ARE winning; this has to be a conspiracy."

That relatively polite guy debating me on Twitter keeps griping about "exclusion" and how fans of old school are being left out. (Actually, re-reading all of his tweets in their entirety: it almost seems like he's confusing "Old-school sf isn't winning Hugo awards" with "old-school sf has somehow been banned.")
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 23 Aug 2016, 15:53

tr0g wrote:
Jennifer wrote:What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy?
The first volume is explicitly a racial holy war. The white god keeps the other gods enslaved, including the black god who is just as powerful as him, in bondage to a white ruling class who rule over the world (The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms) by the power this gives them. Everybody revolts due to main character (black woman) becoming the reincarnation of a murdered goddess. White god is cast down, white ruling class cast down, the black god is raised up supreme and the multicultural people take over. Justice is served, woohoo. This is not an exaggeration. It's as subtle as The Turner Diaries. There's a whole thing about how pure your blood is as a member of the ruling caste and all the rest of it. Seriously, it's like getting hit in the face with a brick labeled "Institutionalized Racism".

Book two is about how all the mixed race people were killed under white god rule because they were a threat but one or two survived, again to cast the current order into disarray.

The third book was actually the most interesting, but also the weakest.
Whether or not we call that "racist" is very much a Rohrschach Test and also a definitional debate (paging fyodor!).

But it's definitely heavy-handed allegory.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 15:54

Perhaps I'd feel differently had I spent my younger days listening to "popular" music, rather than weird Goth/prog/darkambient stuff that never made it to the Top 40 or won music awards in the first place -- I'm used to liking stuff that doesn't have a hell of a lot of mainstream appeal, let alone win mainstream approval in the form of popularity-contest awards. Maybe things would be different if I used to see "my" preferred stuff be preferred by everybody, only to feel more and more marginalized each year as tastes changed and "my" preferences got left behind.

Like Grampa Simpson said: "I was with it once! And then they changed what it was! And now what I'm with isn't it and what's it seems weird and scary to me! And it'll happen to you!"
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 23 Aug 2016, 16:00

thoreau wrote:
tr0g wrote:
Jennifer wrote:What was racist about the Inheritance trilogy?
The first volume is explicitly a racial holy war. The white god keeps the other gods enslaved, including the black god who is just as powerful as him, in bondage to a white ruling class who rule over the world (The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms) by the power this gives them. Everybody revolts due to main character (black woman) becoming the reincarnation of a murdered goddess. White god is cast down, white ruling class cast down, the black god is raised up supreme and the multicultural people take over. Justice is served, woohoo. This is not an exaggeration. It's as subtle as The Turner Diaries. There's a whole thing about how pure your blood is as a member of the ruling caste and all the rest of it. Seriously, it's like getting hit in the face with a brick labeled "Institutionalized Racism".

Book two is about how all the mixed race people were killed under white god rule because they were a threat but one or two survived, again to cast the current order into disarray.

The third book was actually the most interesting, but also the weakest.
Whether or not we call that "racist" is very much a Rohrschach Test and also a definitional debate (paging fyodor!).

But it's definitely heavy-handed allegory.
As was the Star Trek "black/white vs. white/black" episode -- but that was condemning racism, not arguing in favor if it. I've not read the Jemisin trilogy, so I don't know if she portrayed this racist fantasy-world as a good thing, or if she used racism in the story to underscore how evil racism was* -- similar to how Huckleberry Finn contains language every bit as racist as you'll find in The Turner Diaries, except Huck Finn criticizes such attitudes whereas Turner glorifies them.

*EDIT: From what I've read about it, I strongly suspect she was criticizing racism, not arguing "Racism is good so long as it's white folks, rather than black folks, getting shat upon."
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