Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Warren » 24 Aug 2015, 12:20

Fin Fang Foom wrote:Booorrrriinnnnggg.
You know what's even more boring than a geeks vs SJW fecal fling? You telling me how boring you find it that's what.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 24 Aug 2015, 12:27

Gryllularity: All threads eventually get down to someone asking "Why are we discussing this?"

If a write a SF novel called Gryllularity, will you guys start a slate called Happy Kittens to help get it on the Hugo ballot?
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2015, 12:35

thoreau wrote:Gryllularity: All threads eventually get down to someone asking "Why are we discussing this?"
Not all threads, only those with at least one commenter who thinks "Since I don't want to discuss this topic, nobody else should either." It's similar to the "vehement disinterest" I got at work last week from all those readers who were and are totally not-interested in the Ashley Madison hacking, and wrote many angry emails containing the occasional properly spelled word to make sure I knew exactly how totally not-interested they are in the story.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 24 Aug 2015, 12:41

You're being too negative, Jennifer.

HAPPY KITTENS! THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON! OUR SLATE!

Image
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 24 Aug 2015, 13:09

Dogs! You beasts think you have some greater purpose than to provide me with entertainment? I should go through at least two riding crops each in whipping the pride out of you.
Last edited by Fin Fang Foom on 24 Aug 2015, 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Warren » 24 Aug 2015, 13:10

Much better 3F
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 24 Aug 2015, 13:13

Fin Fang Foom wrote:Dogs! You beasts think you have some greater purpose than to provide me with entertainment? I should go through at least two riding crops each in whipping the pride out of you.
Image
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Aug 2015, 15:14

Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Gryllularity: All threads eventually get down to someone asking "Why are we discussing this?"
Not all threads, only those with at least one commenter who thinks "Since I don't want to discuss this topic, nobody else should either." It's similar to the "vehement disinterest" I got at work last week from all those readers who were and are totally not-interested in the Ashley Madison hacking, and wrote many angry emails containing the occasional properly spelled word to make sure I knew exactly how totally not-interested they are in the story.
You're focusing on insisting that some threads are good threads that don't devolve, but you're ignoring the lived experience of what commenters live with every day.

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2015, 15:34

lunchstealer wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
thoreau wrote:Gryllularity: All threads eventually get down to someone asking "Why are we discussing this?"
Not all threads, only those with at least one commenter who thinks "Since I don't want to discuss this topic, nobody else should either." It's similar to the "vehement disinterest" I got at work last week from all those readers who were and are totally not-interested in the Ashley Madison hacking, and wrote many angry emails containing the occasional properly spelled word to make sure I knew exactly how totally not-interested they are in the story.
You're focusing on insisting that some threads are good threads that don't devolve, but you're ignoring the lived experience of what commenters live with every day.

#YesAllCommenters
See, now, I'm not even going to respond to that comment, which is too obviously jejune to warrant a counter-comment from me.

Some comments are worth the trouble for me to type out a few words about them -- a very few words, not many at all -- but others inspire no more than a shrug or an eyeroll at best. And the veritable cornucopia of jejunity here is one such comment, which is why I shan't deign to waste time giving it a response. It's not worth the bandwidth necessary to post the words, is what I'm saying. It's not worth the nanocalories required for my fingertips to apply the necessary pressure to the buttons on my keyboard. It does not warrant the vocabulary skills necessary to channel my inner Mojo Jojo* and say the same thing with different words at least three times in a row.

Hence my former and continued lack of commentary on the matter.

#NotAllCommentators

*EDIT: I do look fucking awesome in a cape, though.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Eric the .5b » 26 Aug 2015, 19:06

thoreau wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:In a related vein, Thoreau, I'd be curious to see your thoughts on the E Pluribus Hugo proposal for reforming the voting process against slate-voting.
I'm looking at the text starting with item 3.8.8 on this page.
Thanks. Between your analysis and a PDF someone pointed me to, I think I have a handle on it.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 27 Aug 2015, 21:41

The FBI file on Ray Bradbury shows great concern over his political commentary, which was "Definitely slanted against the United States." Too bad there was no Puppy movement back then, to fight the SJW influence and keep science fiction pure:

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/ ... -fbi-file/
The FBI wrote:
LA T-9 (2/2/59)

The evening chapter of Women for Legislative Action bulletin dated January 19, 1959, page four, disclosed that RAY BRADBURY, a well known science fiction writer, related that he uses "This medium (science fiction) to try to bring to light some of the current fallacies in human values today."
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Andrew » 21 Aug 2016, 19:58

I don't pay much attention to the Hugos (or most awards), but I saw commenters on a Team Red blog bitching about the most recent winner. I assumed their hyperbolic commentary was just partisan whining, so I've been reading reviews of the winning book (The Fifth Season). It sounds awful. Almost every positive review is loaded with glowing SJW language. Based on the reviews, it wouldn't shock me that the book won because it checked all the right boxes (like so many Oscar winners).

Of course, it appears that I haven't read any books that were nominated since 2010, so I'm not exactly the target audience.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by dbcooper » 21 Aug 2016, 20:14

Yeah, a Hugo award is a pretty good "don't bother" signal for me.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 21 Aug 2016, 20:53

Andrew wrote:I don't pay much attention to the Hugos (or most awards), but I saw commenters on a Team Red blog bitching about the most recent winner. I assumed their hyperbolic commentary was just partisan whining, so I've been reading reviews of the winning book (The Fifth Season). It sounds awful. Almost every positive review is loaded with glowing SJW language. Based on the reviews, it wouldn't shock me that the book won because it checked all the right boxes (like so many Oscar winners).

Of course, it appears that I haven't read any books that were nominated since 2010, so I'm not exactly the target audience.
I do think that, for all the outright bigotry Vox Day and his ilk have dragged into the "controversy," a lot of the problem boils down to "Many middle-aged and old fans plain don't like the new stuff put out nowadays." Only, instead of chalking it up to standard aging, they've convinced themselves it must be a conspiracy against them. Was it Correia or Torgensen, who complained that in the good old days of science fiction, you could look at a book with a spaceship on the cover and know it would be a story about finding new planets and fighting monsters, whereas nowadays you can't easily judge a book by its cover?

Asimov divided science fiction into three main types: aliens, technology and "sociological" science fiction. I've always preferred sociological sf -- I'm not interested in stories about new technology or alien invasions, so much as stories about how human society reacts to these. (Post-apocalyptic stories qualify as sociological sci-fi: how does civilization re-invent itself after this apocalypse?) It sounds like most of the whining puppies really dislike sociological sf, especially if the sociological impact is "huh, people from traditionally marginalized groups get a voice -- or even get to be the protagonist!"
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 21 Aug 2016, 22:27

I should start by emphasizing that my sympathy for the Puppy movement is pretty much nil, because (1) as you noted, Jennifer, their complaints about SF that explores sociological issues can be dismissed with "Then why do you like Star Trek TOS?" and (2) while I haven't read the "related works" that they got nominated, some of the synopses just seem incredibly boring. I mean, I hate me some SJWs, but a book lambasting SJWs seems like the last thing I would look to for a discussion of SF. I look to SF as a way to escape from some of the tedious bullshit of the world, or think about the problems of the world in a new light, not to rehash the same tedious bullshit.

OTOH, I do come to grylliade to rehash tedious bullshit (because what else are you going to do on a forum where you've been for nearly 11 years? :) ), so I will say that there is a certain kind of liberal smug that goes beyond SJWs, and when people react to liberal smug they often get dismissed with a smug assertion that they merely feel threatened by diversity. In the case of idiots who complain about the sociological dimension of modern SF, sure, that's accurate. Anybody who is OK with Trek episodes where alien cultures stand-in for sociological problems of the modern world but doesn't like novels that do the same damn thing is clearly just full of shit. At the same time, I also think that it's dangerous to dismiss all of the people who dislike modern trends in SF as being threatened by diversity. Before you jump to remind me of the Torgensen and Correia statements that I already said I disagree with, understand that I'm merely calling for a multi-dimensional view of people who, for whatever reason, were willing to vote against some of the non-Puppy nominees. It's not so different from suggesting that support for a populist politician might be multi-faceted rather than 100% rooted in bigotry and nothing else.

As an example of the sort of liberal smug that I fear, a couple months ago I was at lunch with a bunch of people and I predicted that Clinton will lose in 2020. (Mostly because I think the economy of 2020 will be worse than the economy of 2016 and it will be impossible to blame the GOP after 12 years of Dem governance.) The response was that Republicans cannot possibly win because they are not adapted to our increasingly diverse country. Now, yes, I agree that they have problems there, and it could very well be that I'm wrong in my predictions. There are valid, non-SJW reasons to disagree with my prediction. At the same time, as I sat at a table of highly-educated liberals who all said that their political enemies are doomed because none of them are in touch with our changing world, my main thought was that this is what fertilizes cultural backlash.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 21 Aug 2016, 23:33

At the same time, as I sat at a table of highly-educated liberals who all said that their political enemies are doomed because none of them are in touch with our changing world, my main thought was that this is what fertilizes cultural backlash.
I don't know exactly what those people said, or how they worded it, but at the same time -- talking specifically about today's GOP, with Trump its presidential nominee, and the traditional racist dog whistle replaced by a sousaphone marching band -- yeah, I do think said GOP is doomed unless it re-invents itself; people are not going to vote for a political party which says "Me and my friends are a threat to all that is good and decent about this country," no matter how much time said political party spends screeching "Benghazi! Obummer! Where's the BIRTH CERTIFICATE, huh?"

I recall something someone -- either a Hugo winner, or non-puppy nominee -- said about last year's puppy whining; it was along the lines of "The fandom has room for everybody, but compromise isn't possible between those who say 'People like us belong to this fandom too,' and those who counter 'No, people like you do not belong here'."
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 21 Aug 2016, 23:36

At the same time, I also think that it's dangerous to dismiss all of the people who dislike modern trends in SF as being threatened by diversity.
Agree, but there's a hyoooooge difference between someone who simply says "Meh, I prefer old-school sf to the new stuff coming out," versus those who insist that the popularity of said new stuff can ONLY be explained by a massive conspiracy against old-school fans.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 22 Aug 2016, 00:11

Jennifer wrote:I recall something someone -- either a Hugo winner, or non-puppy nominee -- said about last year's puppy whining; it was along the lines of "The fandom has room for everybody, but compromise isn't possible between those who say 'People like us belong to this fandom too,' and those who counter 'No, people like you do not belong here'."
Reading Jemisin's non-SF commentary, she certainly believes certain fans don't belong there. And she definitely believes writers who don't toe her lion sufficiently should be harassed out of the field. Especially other women of color.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 22 Aug 2016, 00:24

Wish it were my comment but:
Yep. "Men Only in SF", proclaimed Andre Norton. "No n****rs", says Steven Barnes. "And definitely no fags" proclaimed Arthur C. Clarke on his deathbed. Not to be outdone, Isaac Asimov's lost memoir railed about Jews taking over the genre, and Sarah Hoyt and Larry Correia lamented the lack of Portuguese representation.
Technically incorrect. Arthur C. Clarke was an asexual geosynchronous satellite-kin.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 22 Aug 2016, 00:46

The real divide is between the old-time Asperger's and contemporary Bipolars. And the fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so small.

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Aug 2016, 05:37

thoreau wrote:Before you jump to remind me of the Torgensen and Correia statements that I already said I disagree with, understand that I'm merely calling for a multi-dimensional view of people who, for whatever reason, were willing to vote against some of the non-Puppy nominees.
I think you might have give around the bend with your disclaimers, again, because i don't know what exact actions you're saying we shouldn't judge. The Puppies had slates, not most of the nominees. And you vote in the Hugos by ranking nominees in order of preference.

I actually didn't get a chance to read and vote this year after I got the packet - not enough energy after work. But, from last year's reading, I noticed a really consistent pattern about the works that Puppy folks ballyhooed and condemned: they were, respectively, shit and decent-to-very-good writing. That's pretty much to be expected about ideological struggles against art, but the evidence is useful to have.

As to the issue beyond the Puppies, the dreaded Ess Jay Dubyas...I can only give a hearty "meh". If someone worries about whether the SJWs like a book and lets that color their feelings of the book's value, I have to rate that opinion at the level of a dumb liberal kid's yaps about how Starship Troopers is a Nazi tract. Doubly so if one hasn't read it, because that's completely going down one's own political correctness rabbit hole,.

And I don't know if it's a dog-whistle, but I get skeptical of people who bridle or roll their eyes at mentions of racial/sexual/etc. equality, just as I do for the people who react the same way to mentions of freedom and liberty. I don't think that's terribly unfair, and I don't care about the "Oh, the SJWs/the Republicans poisoned the well" excuses. Freedom and tolerance are good things. If someon turns out to be genuinely against one or both, I just don't care why, anymore. They are a fuck I'm comfortable writing off until and unless they unfuck themselves.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 22 Aug 2016, 08:49

Everything I see about this tells me, "just walk away."
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Kolohe » 22 Aug 2016, 09:06

I read the short story about Internet cat pictures because it was short and free online. I thought it raised an interesting ethical question, though didn't answer it at anything but the surface level.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Warren » 22 Aug 2016, 10:31

Kolohe wrote:I read the short story about Internet cat pictures because it was short and free online. I thought it raised an interesting ethical question, though didn't answer it at anything but the surface level.
*scanning.... scanning...* I know I should be picking up something, but the screen is blank.
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Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Kolohe » 22 Aug 2016, 10:37

http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/kritzer_01_15/

This is the story I'm talking about. Raises ethical questions on how much is too much trying to help people handle their problems.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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