Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Music, books, movies, TV, games, hobbies, food, and potent potables. And forum games! Pour a drink, put on your smoking jacket, light a pipe (of whatever), and settle in.
User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 8002
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Taktix® » 15 Apr 2015, 12:44

Mo wrote:Couldn't you say the same thing about Iran?
I guess it depends upon where one draws the line between western and eastern, but I could see that argument going either way. Would we call Islam an eastern or western religion?

ETA: In this context rather, in that is Russian Orthodox : Christianity :: Islam : Western Abrahamic Religions?
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9984
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 15 Apr 2015, 12:54

Mindset is different from political system.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 8002
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Taktix® » 15 Apr 2015, 13:45

Sandy wrote:Mindset is different from political system.
Fair enough, but which is more likely to endure during the propagation of Russians out into space?
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24935
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Mo » 15 Apr 2015, 13:52

Mindset. Mindset plus environmental factors/needs will determine the 'appropriate' political system in space.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24480
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by JasonL » 15 Apr 2015, 14:07

You may have to forego mindset by leaving enough gold at home to reach escape velocity.

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9984
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Sandy » 15 Apr 2015, 14:17

Mo wrote:Mindset. Mindset plus environmental factors/needs will determine the 'appropriate' political system in space.
Also note the nominally Western government contrasted with the effective rule of oligarchs during the late 90s/early 2000s and the rule of Putin. The weak rule of law plus heavy bureaucracy are considered "oriental" traits.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 8002
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Taktix® » 15 Apr 2015, 14:46

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:Mindset. Mindset plus environmental factors/needs will determine the 'appropriate' political system in space.
Also note the nominally Western government contrasted with the effective rule of oligarchs during the late 90s/early 2000s and the rule of Putin. The weak rule of law plus heavy bureaucracy are considered "oriental" traits.
I don't feel that weak rule of law and heavy bureaucracy are specific enough to the East to definitively determine a mindset/culture is "oriental"...
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28604
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by thoreau » 15 Apr 2015, 14:56

Taktix® wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:Mindset. Mindset plus environmental factors/needs will determine the 'appropriate' political system in space.
Also note the nominally Western government contrasted with the effective rule of oligarchs during the late 90s/early 2000s and the rule of Putin. The weak rule of law plus heavy bureaucracy are considered "oriental" traits.
I don't feel that weak rule of law and heavy bureaucracy are specific enough to the East to definitively determine a mindset/culture is "oriental"...
Italy agrees with you.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13969
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Eric the .5b » 15 Apr 2015, 15:16

Aresen wrote:
Painboy wrote:From what I've read the Soviet's early space lead was due heavily to one guy, whose name currently escapes me. He had a lot of influence in the government and was able to leverage a lot of money for the program. But he died within a few years of the start of the program and without his influence the Soviets no longer supported it as lavishly as he had. The government was much more interested in cranking out ICBMs. So all the manned stuff got little funding.
Sergei Pavlovich Korolev

Image

His name was a top secret until after his death. He was referred to only as 'the chief designer'.
He was the secret designer who made the secret designs.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
dbcooper
Posts: 18305
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:40

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by dbcooper » 15 Apr 2015, 16:29

Taktix, there are other descriptors than east and west, and russians are in a category of their own.

Russians have Russian values, and they are insane.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

User avatar
tr0g
Posts: 6785
Joined: 11 May 2011, 10:21
Location: At the shop

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by tr0g » 15 Apr 2015, 16:30

dbcooper wrote:Taktix, there are other descriptors than east and west, and russians are in a category of their own.

Russians have Russian values, and they are insane.
Word. I like Russians, but they nuts.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

User avatar
Stevo Darkly
Posts: 7242
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 19:13

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by Stevo Darkly » 15 Apr 2015, 17:38

Eric the .5b wrote:I think overreaction is a thing.
Mayhap you are right.

Quality of this vs. quality of that: I'm not sure enough about anything to offer an opinion right now, and I'm aware of the huge subjective component involved in judging quality. I did like the Wright "Yes, Virginia" at the time I read it. I tried re-reading it now but I'm just not in the mood. (Besides, work calls soon.)

I do remember reading one of the stories that won a Hugo last year, "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love," and thinking, "What the hell is this? It's a potentially interesting experimental fragment, but is it even science fiction? Do I think it ranks among the best science fiction stories I've ever read?"

Wright wrote a story in response -- "Queen of the Tyrant Lizards" (not submitted for a Hugo as far as I know). I remember liking it much, much more than IYWADML -- I thought it had a stronger science-fictional component, and it was more accessible to me, and entertained more as a story. (It also had some flaws, which I wrote to Wright about.) All pretty subjective stuff. I would have to dig it up again to see if I feel as enthusiastic about it now as I was then. Maybe it just hit me at a good time. I probably wouldn't call it one of the best sort SF stories of all time, but I did much prefer it to the Hugo-winner.

But again -- I'm not really worked up about the Hugo Awards, per se. Or, really, most of the personalities involved in it. And I don't know that anything on the Sad Puppies slate deserves to win any award. This particular hubbub is just a very small symptom of a broader struggle that I think I'm seeing in SF right now.

Although the more you write, Eric, the more I think I agree with some of the nuances of what you say.
"I don't know if you can call it a stereotype when I was in a room full of people actually doing it." -- Keith S.

User avatar
Stevo Darkly
Posts: 7242
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 19:13

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Stevo Darkly » 15 Apr 2015, 17:44

nicole wrote:Stevo is what we now call a Western supremacist.
Sort of. I do think that certain cultures are better fit at dealing with their environment, and expanding, and benefiting their members, and overcoming their competitors, than others. And the West seems to be pretty good at that.

I think maybe I prefer to call myself a NealStephensonist. I see ideas like that in his fiction -- most explicitly in The Diamond Age.

Although it may simply be a restatement of Richard Dawkin's rather brilliant "memes" idea*. Cultures being clusters of memes.

*Before "meme" was taken over to mean "variations of a cartoon that get passed around on the Internet."
"I don't know if you can call it a stereotype when I was in a room full of people actually doing it." -- Keith S.

User avatar
Stevo Darkly
Posts: 7242
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 19:13

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Stevo Darkly » 15 Apr 2015, 17:47

dbcooper wrote:FTL or GTFO.
My fervent and optimistic hope that someday humans will master the technology of high-speed interstellar travel is tempered by the fact that most humans haven't yet mastered the turn signal.
"I don't know if you can call it a stereotype when I was in a room full of people actually doing it." -- Keith S.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13969
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by Eric the .5b » 15 Apr 2015, 22:35

Stevo Darkly wrote:I do remember reading one of the stories that won a Hugo last year, "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love," and thinking, "What the hell is this? It's a potentially interesting experimental fragment, but is it even science fiction? Do I think it ranks among the best science fiction stories I've ever read?"
Mind, that story didn't actually win a Hugo. The winner for Short Story in 2014 was "The Water That Falls on You from Nowhere" by John Chu. (Oddly, this misunderstanding came up about "Dinosaur" elsewhere, which is why I know this off the top of my head.)

However, as a broader point, Hugo awards are for "best SF/F work in a category this year", not "that work which is worth adding to the canon of eternal classics". I really liked Redshirts, for instance, but it wasn't one of the best books I'd ever read. It was just a good book that won that year. Like a lot of awards, you get writers winning for stuff that isn't even their best work because their best work came out in a more competitive year and other random weirdness.
Stevo Darkly wrote:But again -- I'm not really worked up about the Hugo Awards, per se. Or, really, most of the personalities involved in it. And I don't know that anything on the Sad Puppies slate deserves to win any award. This particular hubbub is just a very small symptom of a broader struggle that I think I'm seeing in SF right now.
I'm not nearly as worked up as some acquaintances and friends of mine, but it does bother me.

I mean, sure, like I said, SF has never been immune to the sports bar (and considering the quality of most satirical SF, I wish I could vaccinate writers against it), so there's always at least one political/ideological conflict. Fandom (especially Serious Ritual Fandom) is just a microcosm of society. And sure, I have no particular love for the Hugos as an institution.

But what bugs me is that it's a particular sort of Red nastiness. Not just the nastiness that Blues try to paint libertarians with, but the nastiness that tries to claim someone like me as its rightful beneficiary, whether because I'm a straight white guy or "on the right" or whatever commonality they want to have with me. It's like some older relative who's just gone off on a hideous racist or homophobic rant, and he's looking at you, smiling because he thinks you agree with him. Except he's not family, he's not even a friend, he's just some stranger with a blog, claiming to speak for you.
Stevo Darkly wrote:Although the more you write, Eric, the more I think I agree with some of the nuances of what you say.
I appreciate your listening.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 8002
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Taktix® » 16 Apr 2015, 08:29

tr0g wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Taktix, there are other descriptors than east and west, and russians are in a category of their own.

Russians have Russian values, and they are insane.
Word. I like Russians, but they nuts.
I agree fully. In Soviet Russia, cardinal directions describe you!
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24597
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by Jennifer » 16 Apr 2015, 08:41

Eric the .5b wrote:
Stevo Darkly wrote:I do remember reading one of the stories that won a Hugo last year, "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love," and thinking, "What the hell is this? It's a potentially interesting experimental fragment, but is it even science fiction? Do I think it ranks among the best science fiction stories I've ever read?"
Mind, that story didn't actually win a Hugo. The winner for Short Story in 2014 was "The Water That Falls on You from Nowhere" by John Chu. (Oddly, this misunderstanding came up about "Dinosaur" elsewhere, which is why I know this off the top of my head.)
Even more oddly, I too heard someone-who-should-know-better angrily and erroneously cite "Dinosaur" as an example of an undeserving Hugo-winner. Then again, if one is trying to argue that Vox Day the open white supremacist and woman-hater nonetheless managed to land on the side of the angels here, I'm not sure "adherence to the actual facts" is possible....
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
tr0g
Posts: 6785
Joined: 11 May 2011, 10:21
Location: At the shop

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by tr0g » 16 Apr 2015, 09:18

Jennifer wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:
Stevo Darkly wrote:I do remember reading one of the stories that won a Hugo last year, "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love," and thinking, "What the hell is this? It's a potentially interesting experimental fragment, but is it even science fiction? Do I think it ranks among the best science fiction stories I've ever read?"
Mind, that story didn't actually win a Hugo. The winner for Short Story in 2014 was "The Water That Falls on You from Nowhere" by John Chu. (Oddly, this misunderstanding came up about "Dinosaur" elsewhere, which is why I know this off the top of my head.)
Even more oddly, I too heard someone-who-should-know-better angrily and erroneously cite "Dinosaur" as an example of an undeserving Hugo-winner. Then again, if one is trying to argue that Vox Day the open white supremacist and woman-hater nonetheless managed to land on the side of the angels here, I'm not sure "adherence to the actual facts" is possible....
I'll admit, I am open to the possibility that Ted Beale is performing some elaborate years-long trolling effort for his own amusement or to prove some kind of point. I think it's far more likely (>99.5%) that's he 's just as big an asshole as he seems, but he is deliberately trolling people enough so that I occasionally wonder if the whole thing is a put-on.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24597
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by Jennifer » 16 Apr 2015, 09:33

tr0g wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:
Stevo Darkly wrote:I do remember reading one of the stories that won a Hugo last year, "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love," and thinking, "What the hell is this? It's a potentially interesting experimental fragment, but is it even science fiction? Do I think it ranks among the best science fiction stories I've ever read?"
Mind, that story didn't actually win a Hugo. The winner for Short Story in 2014 was "The Water That Falls on You from Nowhere" by John Chu. (Oddly, this misunderstanding came up about "Dinosaur" elsewhere, which is why I know this off the top of my head.)
Even more oddly, I too heard someone-who-should-know-better angrily and erroneously cite "Dinosaur" as an example of an undeserving Hugo-winner. Then again, if one is trying to argue that Vox Day the open white supremacist and woman-hater nonetheless managed to land on the side of the angels here, I'm not sure "adherence to the actual facts" is possible....
I'll admit, I am open to the possibility that Ted Beale is performing some elaborate years-long trolling effort for his own amusement or to prove some kind of point. I think it's far more likely (>99.5%) that's he 's just as big an asshole as he seems, but he is deliberately trolling people enough so that I occasionally wonder if the whole thing is a put-on.
Based on other "white nationalists" (the nouveau term for "white supremacist") and/or angry woman-haters I've chatted with in various contexts, I'm willing to buy that he is genuinely sincere in his hatred. (Or maybe "ridiculously oversized sense of entitlement" is a more accurate term--the hatred doesn't really kick in until the "entitlement" starts feeling deprived.)

What bemuses me, specifically regarding this Hugo brouhaha a la "Waaaah the big scaaaary SJW conspiracy is ruining science fiction waaaaah this makes me butthurt to the point of anal bleeding" is the non-bigots who on the one hand admit that VD is a bigoted nutcase, yet still desperately grasp at any straw they can to argue "The side supported by that bigoted nutcase is nonetheless the side worth supporting." Thus, more than one person citing non-Hugo-winner "Dinosaur" as proof that those dreaded, terrifying SJWs have taken over and are ruining science fiction, because a story I personally dislike did NOT actually win a Hugo award but what if it did, huh? What if it did?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 9916
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by nicole » 16 Apr 2015, 10:20

Eric the .5b wrote:But what bugs me is that it's a particular sort of Red nastiness. Not just the nastiness that Blues try to paint libertarians with, but the nastiness that tries to claim someone like me as its rightful beneficiary, whether because I'm a straight white guy or "on the right" or whatever commonality they want to have with me. It's like some older relative who's just gone off on a hideous racist or homophobic rant, and he's looking at you, smiling because he thinks you agree with him. Except he's not family, he's not even a friend, he's just some stranger with a blog, claiming to speak for you.
This struck a bit of a cord with me, although this is a problem I have with Blues. My real-life world is basically devoid of Team Red, but I spend lots of time around Blues who will do rants just as hideous and assume I agree with them for demographic reasons. And I also have friends and quasi-friends and strangers with blogs doing the same thing. I recently extricated myself from an increasingly SJW-oriented group blogging situation, also about literature though not SF, and my experience with these people was pretty much the exact same as you describe but with different colors. Basically, I have become bizarrely more likely to sympathize with one side of the culture war simply because the other side assumes it owns me.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Sliced bagels aren't why trump won; it's why it doesn't matter who wins." -dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24597
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Horrible, Offensive Geekery

Post by Jennifer » 16 Apr 2015, 11:28

nicole wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:But what bugs me is that it's a particular sort of Red nastiness. Not just the nastiness that Blues try to paint libertarians with, but the nastiness that tries to claim someone like me as its rightful beneficiary, whether because I'm a straight white guy or "on the right" or whatever commonality they want to have with me. It's like some older relative who's just gone off on a hideous racist or homophobic rant, and he's looking at you, smiling because he thinks you agree with him. Except he's not family, he's not even a friend, he's just some stranger with a blog, claiming to speak for you.
This struck a bit of a cord with me, although this is a problem I have with Blues. My real-life world is basically devoid of Team Red, but I spend lots of time around Blues who will do rants just as hideous and assume I agree with them for demographic reasons. And I also have friends and quasi-friends and strangers with blogs doing the same thing. I recently extricated myself from an increasingly SJW-oriented group blogging situation, also about literature though not SF, and my experience with these people was pretty much the exact same as you describe but with different colors. Basically, I have become bizarrely more likely to sympathize with one side of the culture war simply because the other side assumes it owns me.
Yet you are able to avoid that false dichotomy in politics, are you not? As in, you avoided the trap of "Well, since I don't like what the Republicans stand for, I must be a Democrat" or "Since I don't like the Democrats I suppose I'll have to be Republican" and chose instead to self-identify as a "libertarian," whatever that label means to you.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24480
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by JasonL » 16 Apr 2015, 15:25

I find that if I lob enough grenades into both camps on social media, nobody thinks they own me / I get to be lonely / whatever.

And by lob grenades I just accept certain points one side would rather I not accept while going after the side making that point for running 500 miles past what is justified or reasonable.

My take on Trayvon Martin irritates everyone. My take on climate change irritates everyone. My take on taxation irritates everyone. Healthcare. National security.

Nobody will try to adopt you if you don't accept their Story.

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 9916
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by nicole » 16 Apr 2015, 15:45

Nobody will try to adopt you if you reject their story. If you are silent, they will.

I'm not exactly sure what false dichotomy you're referring to, Jennifer, unless it's "if I'm not A I must be Y." I didn't say I actually identified with people like SP; I sympathize with them. Because I have lost basically any ability to sympathize with their opponents. And I'm also more likely to sympathize with Republicans than Democrats, even though I spent most of my life considering Republicans anathema. At least Rs assume I don't like them. That is apparently the bar for me to give someone points, which seems sad.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Sliced bagels aren't why trump won; it's why it doesn't matter who wins." -dhex

User avatar
tr0g
Posts: 6785
Joined: 11 May 2011, 10:21
Location: At the shop

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by tr0g » 16 Apr 2015, 16:06

nicole wrote:Nobody will try to adopt you if you reject their story. If you are silent, they will.

I'm not exactly sure what false dichotomy you're referring to, Jennifer, unless it's "if I'm not A I must be Y." I didn't say I actually identified with people like SP; I sympathize with them. Because I have lost basically any ability to sympathize with their opponents. And I'm also more likely to sympathize with Republicans than Democrats, even though I spent most of my life considering Republicans anathema. At least Rs assume I don't like them. That is apparently the bar for me to give someone points, which seems sad.
Is it better to remain silent and be thought a Democrat than to speak, and remove all doubt? It seems weird that you're more okay with people assuming you don't like them than people assuming you like them. (Most people assume I don't like them, and they're right.) Or is it more the rest of the cultural baggage that comes along when people assume you're one of the progressive borg?

I don't get mistaken for a donk much. That happens more to the wife. People assume I'm more efenant than I am, but deep in the heart of red-state Texas assuming an ex-military guy who works in the oil industry is Republican is usually a safe bet.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24597
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Hugos, Hugos, fight fight fight

Post by Jennifer » 16 Apr 2015, 16:31

nicole wrote:I didn't say I actually identified with people like SP; I sympathize with them.
Serious question, though: sympathize with what? Their belief that a dreaded conspiracy of SJWs is "taking over" fandom, as evidenced by -- well, they won't offer any actual evidence when asked, but they will repeat their claims a lot. The SJWs are taking over! It's all about politics!

Seriously: which specific claim of the Sad (not Rabid) puppies makes you nod and say "Yeah, I see their point"? Or is it less specific, and more simply a matter of "Well, I really hate SJWs, and they say they do too, ergo I sympathize with them?"
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests