Guns and Whatnot.

Music, books, movies, TV, games, hobbies, food, and potent potables. And forum games! Pour a drink, put on your smoking jacket, light a pipe (of whatever), and settle in.
User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6772
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Andrew » 09 Aug 2019, 10:29

lunchstealer wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 10:32
Andrew wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 00:53
An acquaintance is selling his LMT AR-15 in .308. If I had money burning a hole in my pocket...
I've gotten to shoot an AR-10 (which is essentially what you describe, but dunno if there's a technical difference) and it was very nice. Actually a really good feel compared to an AR-15-clone I'd fired before. Also got to fire an M1 Garand that outing. I think the AR-10 was nicer.
Believe me, I'm tempted, but the cost/value would put me into "I should get a gun safe" territory, and that's difficult as a renter.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

The sun only shines when a woman is being sexually abused. - Warren

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24460
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 12:33

Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 10:29
lunchstealer wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 10:32
Andrew wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 00:53
An acquaintance is selling his LMT AR-15 in .308. If I had money burning a hole in my pocket...
I've gotten to shoot an AR-10 (which is essentially what you describe, but dunno if there's a technical difference) and it was very nice. Actually a really good feel compared to an AR-15-clone I'd fired before. Also got to fire an M1 Garand that outing. I think the AR-10 was nicer.
Believe me, I'm tempted, but the cost/value would put me into "I should get a gun safe" territory, and that's difficult as a renter.
Locking cabinets are good enough deterrents and don't weigh nearly as much. You are just trying to make accessibility super annoying, which they do.

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 3239
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 07:56
Location: Newyorkachusetts

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Jasper » 09 Aug 2019, 12:38

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:33
Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 10:29
lunchstealer wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 10:32
Andrew wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 00:53
An acquaintance is selling his LMT AR-15 in .308. If I had money burning a hole in my pocket...
I've gotten to shoot an AR-10 (which is essentially what you describe, but dunno if there's a technical difference) and it was very nice. Actually a really good feel compared to an AR-15-clone I'd fired before. Also got to fire an M1 Garand that outing. I think the AR-10 was nicer.
Believe me, I'm tempted, but the cost/value would put me into "I should get a gun safe" territory, and that's difficult as a renter.
Locking cabinets are good enough deterrents and don't weigh nearly as much. You are just trying to make accessibility super annoying, which they do.
Yep, this is what we went with even though we're homeowners. It's basically a gym locker with a slightly more-robust lock.
"i'd like to move toward not combusting except on special occasions like arbor day." - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24460
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 12:42

It's all I've ever used. Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6772
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Andrew » 09 Aug 2019, 13:53

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:42
Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.
Living the dream.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

The sun only shines when a woman is being sexually abused. - Warren

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Aug 2019, 15:03

Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:53
JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:42
Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.
Living the dream.
And ready to defend against the tyranny of government when the SWAT team tank plows through the front door.

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24930
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 15:44

There are a bunch of pro-2A conservatives cheering and pumping up this story. What I have yet to find out is what laws did this guy break aside from being scary looking? This is exactly what people can do with all of the constitutional carry laws they’ve been pushing.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/08/us/walma ... index.html
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24460
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 15:59

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:53
JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:42
Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.
Living the dream.
And ready to defend against the tyranny of government when the SWAT team tank plows through the front door.
I’m not going very far down this road but this line of snark has always struck me as profoundly lacking in imagination, not on the creativity of the words but in the limited view of what is possible and how high costs could get. Also, every asymmetrical conflict the world has ever seen.

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Aug 2019, 16:33

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 15:59
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:53
JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:42
Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.
Living the dream.
And ready to defend against the tyranny of government when the SWAT team tank plows through the front door.
I’m not going very far down this road but this line of snark has always struck me as profoundly lacking in imagination, not on the creativity of the words but in the limited view of what is possible and how high costs could get. Also, every asymmetrical conflict the world has ever seen.
One man's paucity of imagination is another's clarity of vision.

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6810
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Dangerman » 09 Aug 2019, 19:54

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 16:33
JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 15:59
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Andrew wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:53
JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:42
Like 9-10 handguns, 2 ARs, 3 shotguns.
Living the dream.
And ready to defend against the tyranny of government when the SWAT team tank plows through the front door.
I’m not going very far down this road but this line of snark has always struck me as profoundly lacking in imagination, not on the creativity of the words but in the limited view of what is possible and how high costs could get. Also, every asymmetrical conflict the world has ever seen.
One man's paucity of imagination is another's clarity of vision.
It's a clear vision of what might be the case if one lone person decided to "resist tyranny", but it is a paucity of imagination of what would happen if a small section of the public decided to resist tyranny.

Consider herd immunity.

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24460
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 20:02

I can’t fathom why anyone who notes the, er, complex nature of armored carring your way through Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, etc etc resistance movements could maintain quite that level of snark at the idea of people with rifles can be real problems, and that’s where the political will to do damage isn’t against your own citizenry.

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6810
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Dangerman » 09 Aug 2019, 20:24

In early 1965, Black students were picketing the local high school in Jonesboro for integration. They were confronted by hostile police ready to use fire trucks with hoses against them. A car carrying four Deacons arrived. In view of the police, these men loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw. This was the first time in the 20th century, as Hill observes, that "an armed black organization had successfully used weapons to defend a lawful protest against an attack by law enforcement."[5]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons ... f-enc1_7-0

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28594
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 20:27

This is from 2008 and it's even more true today:
I've said this before and will again: the very heart of the "widespread gun ownership checks tyranny" argument has been tested and failed completely.

For twenty years or more, political discourse in a whole lot of online forums was swamped by people telling the rest of us how the US was getting ever more tyrannical, and that the day would come when on some flimsy pretext the government would abandon habeaus corpus, engage in unlimited surveillance of everyone it felt like spying on, arrest people on arbitrary grounds and then abuse them any way the captors felt like, and so on.

It turns out they were right about that part.

They also told the rest of us that when this happened, they would rise up en masse. They would free unjustly held prisoners, put terror into the hearts of agents of tyranny, maybe even overthrow the tyrant him/herself. (As the '90s went on, the hypothetical tyrant was increasingly likely to be portrayed as a woman.) And did they? Did they hell.

There are no martyrs from the RKBA crowd. Their organizations sometimes join in efforts mostly initiated and staffed by others, but apart from objections to a handful of specific proposed restrictions on gun sales and such, one hears of no RKBA leadership on any of the rest. To the contrary, one hears a great deal of cheerleading for warmaking abroad and tyranny at home as long as all the right people get it, and one hears silence. Where are those freed prisoners? Nowhere. Where are those terrified agents? Nowhere. It was all the purest bloviation.

It's really very rare for such ambitious claims about what one will do oneself and what one's allies will do in a moment of profound crisis. But Bush/Cheney gave us all the chance. And all of you going on about how guns keep the republic safe and free are completely full of it. All the things you warned us about came to pass, and where are you? Right here with the bulk of us, and well behind some - there are individual posters here who as single people have done more actual good for American liberty than half the membership of the NRA and such groups.

It's liberal lawyers, academics, journalists, and the like who are actually pressing the government, pretty much, and liberals at large funding them, while conservatives and libertarians (with way, way too few exceptions) either cheer and keep voting for the tyranny or sigh and shake a finger and then keep voting for it. The RKBA claims about guns' role in society are demonstrably false for America at the beginning of the 21st century, and no amount of dithering over 18th century will change that. The Second Amendment as constituted is useless not because of then, but because of now, because of you its champions.

Posted by: Bruce Baugh | June 27, 2008 at 03:44 AM
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidia ... 7434608833
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24460
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 21:21

That also is a shit argument. It doesn’t check marginal encroachment because no shit. It is a check on things people might be willing to shoot over. Maybe that isn’t much, but let’s be clear if you try to take land en masse, seize property like a Chavez movement, confiscate 300,000,000 guns - you will have enforcement agents getting shot over it and if you press harder you may find that resistance escalates. We aren’t “kinda like” a dictatorship.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28594
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 21:26

If federal agents tried to round up large numbers of people in massive sweeps, states like Mississippi would break out their massive stashes of guns and send some feds home in body bags.

Or maybe not.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Aug 2019, 21:33

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 21:21
That also is a shit argument. It doesn’t check marginal encroachment because no shit. It is a check on things people might be willing to shoot over. Maybe that isn’t much, but let’s be clear if you try to take land en masse, seize property like a Chavez movement, confiscate 300,000,000 guns - you will have enforcement agents getting shot over it and if you press harder you may find that resistance escalates. We aren’t “kinda like” a dictatorship.
You also might find that resistance withering to trivial proportions. Of course, neither of us know just how or how many armed Americans would react to the repeal of the 2nd Amendment and President AOC's executive order to start confiscating firearms. No doubt, quite a few would indeed resist, but few have the wherewithal or the skills to take to the hills, literally or proverbally. Survivalists constitute a near infinitesimal percentage of all gun owners. Sure, it might take a couple of years to cut significantly into all the guns in private hands in the U.S., but it's an absurdity to think gun ownership is the tipping point that will turn otherwise law abiding citizens into guerrilla warriors, let alone an effective resistance movement. You'll also have enforcement agents surrounding suburban homes like they were the Branch Davidians with roughly the same outcome. Meanwhile, Joe Bob with his (average) six or more guns but who has never shot anything more dangerous than a deer or a target before is going to think twice before yelling out some bullshit about his cold dead fingers. America has already voted on the security versus freedom question and freedom didn't even come close.

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6810
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Dangerman » 09 Aug 2019, 22:14

Except when it's a bunch of ranchers I guess.

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Aug 2019, 22:25

Dangerman wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:14
Except when it's a bunch of ranchers I guess.
Yes, they'll be more troublesome. And what proportion of gun owners in the U.S. are ranchers? How many of them could survive for any length of time without electricity? How many of their workers will fight to the death to protect their employer's property? Mind you, I agree that rounding up hundreds of millions of firearms isn't going to happen overnight nor that they could ever make the U.S. a "gun free zone." But all those guys who bought their camo gear at the Bass Pro Shop, who keep most of their firearms in a safe in the basement of the three bedroom split-level with two cars, two kids, no particular job security or savings and debt up to their asses? Those guys are going to take to the hills? I don't think so.

Of course, this also assumes the military will follow civilian leadership when the roundup begins, and that's not a given, but it's closer to a given than a military coup and, frankly, the latter wouldn't likely be all that friendly to non-military gun ownership, either. Sure, every Mayberry in the U.S. now has a SWAT team and all sorts of military equipment they just had hangin' around the National Guard Armory. That's more than enough firepower to take on the local NRA chapter, but without integrated and long-lasting logistical support, command communications, etc., they're about as likely to succeed at resisting a bona fide military operation as Grylliade is likely to take over Congress.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28594
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 23:19

The reason the feds will never take significant action against gun owners who pay their taxes, don't take over federal buildings, andd generally don't cause trouble. Not because of the firepower they own but because of the votes they cast. They vote reliably Red, for the most part, they duly support law enforcement, and they duly explain why the security state is right to go after whoever it's going after.

As long as gun owners vote for the people who lock kids in camps there's absolutely no need for the people who run the camps to go after gun owners.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Aug 2019, 23:33

thoreau wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 23:19
As long as gun owners vote for the people who lock kids in camps there's absolutely no need for the people who run the camps to go after gun owners.
First, I'm impressed with your ability to refrain from saying "concentration camps." Progress. Second, yes, that's true. It isn't their firepower that protects the people you describe, it's the fact that they will reliably support the police state. But that's not my point. My point is only that the firepower wouldn't avail them of all that much for all that long if the state did come for their guns.

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6810
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Dangerman » 10 Aug 2019, 00:00

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:25
Dangerman wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:14
Except when it's a bunch of ranchers I guess.
Yes, they'll be more troublesome. And what proportion of gun owners in the U.S. are ranchers? How many of them could survive for any length of time without electricity? How many of their workers will fight to the death to protect their employer's property? Mind you, I agree that rounding up hundreds of millions of firearms isn't going to happen overnight nor that they could ever make the U.S. a "gun free zone." But all those guys who bought their camo gear at the Bass Pro Shop, who keep most of their firearms in a safe in the basement of the three bedroom split-level with two cars, two kids, no particular job security or savings and debt up to their asses? Those guys are going to take to the hills? I don't think so.

Of course, this also assumes the military will follow civilian leadership when the roundup begins, and that's not a given, but it's closer to a given than a military coup and, frankly, the latter wouldn't likely be all that friendly to non-military gun ownership, either. Sure, every Mayberry in the U.S. now has a SWAT team and all sorts of military equipment they just had hangin' around the National Guard Armory. That's more than enough firepower to take on the local NRA chapter, but without integrated and long-lasting logistical support, command communications, etc., they're about as likely to succeed at resisting a bona fide military operation as Grylliade is likely to take over Congress.
No I meant remember the Bundy fiasco. The FedGov just didn't have the spine to go in and use the forces that you are pointing at. They lacked the zanshin, or it was broken. I'm specifically not making the Red Dawn argument, I'm saying history is swinging away from the USG being able to Waco people, and that successful defense against local and petty tyranny is both the goal and the actual outcome in many cases.

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7985
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by Pham Nuwen » 10 Aug 2019, 00:32

Dangerman wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 00:00
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:25
Dangerman wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:14
Except when it's a bunch of ranchers I guess.
Yes, they'll be more troublesome. And what proportion of gun owners in the U.S. are ranchers? How many of them could survive for any length of time without electricity? How many of their workers will fight to the death to protect their employer's property? Mind you, I agree that rounding up hundreds of millions of firearms isn't going to happen overnight nor that they could ever make the U.S. a "gun free zone." But all those guys who bought their camo gear at the Bass Pro Shop, who keep most of their firearms in a safe in the basement of the three bedroom split-level with two cars, two kids, no particular job security or savings and debt up to their asses? Those guys are going to take to the hills? I don't think so.

Of course, this also assumes the military will follow civilian leadership when the roundup begins, and that's not a given, but it's closer to a given than a military coup and, frankly, the latter wouldn't likely be all that friendly to non-military gun ownership, either. Sure, every Mayberry in the U.S. now has a SWAT team and all sorts of military equipment they just had hangin' around the National Guard Armory. That's more than enough firepower to take on the local NRA chapter, but without integrated and long-lasting logistical support, command communications, etc., they're about as likely to succeed at resisting a bona fide military operation as Grylliade is likely to take over Congress.
No I meant remember the Bundy fiasco. The FedGov just didn't have the spine to go in and use the forces that you are pointing at. They lacked the zanshin, or it was broken. I'm specifically not making the Red Dawn argument, I'm saying history is swinging away from the USG being able to Waco people, and that successful defense against local and petty tyranny is both the goal and the actual outcome in many cases.
I see how you could infer that. I also see that those actors had a certain look and melanin count. I remain unconvinced.

I am apparently in DAR's camp on this though I'm not entirely. I suspect some shred of hope I'm wrong about it all.
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 10 Aug 2019, 00:34

Dangerman wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 00:00
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:25
Dangerman wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:14
Except when it's a bunch of ranchers I guess.
Yes, they'll be more troublesome. And what proportion of gun owners in the U.S. are ranchers? How many of them could survive for any length of time without electricity? How many of their workers will fight to the death to protect their employer's property? Mind you, I agree that rounding up hundreds of millions of firearms isn't going to happen overnight nor that they could ever make the U.S. a "gun free zone." But all those guys who bought their camo gear at the Bass Pro Shop, who keep most of their firearms in a safe in the basement of the three bedroom split-level with two cars, two kids, no particular job security or savings and debt up to their asses? Those guys are going to take to the hills? I don't think so.

Of course, this also assumes the military will follow civilian leadership when the roundup begins, and that's not a given, but it's closer to a given than a military coup and, frankly, the latter wouldn't likely be all that friendly to non-military gun ownership, either. Sure, every Mayberry in the U.S. now has a SWAT team and all sorts of military equipment they just had hangin' around the National Guard Armory. That's more than enough firepower to take on the local NRA chapter, but without integrated and long-lasting logistical support, command communications, etc., they're about as likely to succeed at resisting a bona fide military operation as Grylliade is likely to take over Congress.
No I meant remember the Bundy fiasco. The FedGov just didn't have the spine to go in and use the forces that you are pointing at. They lacked the zanshin, or it was broken. I'm specifically not making the Red Dawn argument, I'm saying history is swinging away from the USG being able to Waco people, and that successful defense against local and petty tyranny is both the goal and the actual outcome in many cases.
That's fair. OTOH, if the feds had the resolve, they certainly had the resources. Nothing much changed in the U.S. vis a vis Iran during the hostage crisis when Reagan took office, but that was enough. That said, I don't foresee anything like what I described if only because, as far as it goes, Thoreau is right. But there could be a political sea-change in the U.S. It's happened before.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28594
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by thoreau » 10 Aug 2019, 11:41


D.A. Ridgely wrote:
thoreau wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 23:19
As long as gun owners vote for the people who lock kids in camps there's absolutely no need for the people who run the camps to go after gun owners.
First, I'm impressed with your ability to refrain from saying "concentration camps." Progress.
"Progress" is an interesting way to describe it. You are making fascinating assumptions about where the improvements are needed.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 19146
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Guns and Whatnot.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 10 Aug 2019, 12:08

thoreau wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 11:41
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
thoreau wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 23:19
As long as gun owners vote for the people who lock kids in camps there's absolutely no need for the people who run the camps to go after gun owners.
First, I'm impressed with your ability to refrain from saying "concentration camps." Progress.
"Progress" is an interesting way to describe it. You are making fascinating assumptions about where the improvements are needed.
I'm a fascinating fellow. So are you, come to think of it.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dbcooper and 10 guests