Food

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Ellie
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Re: Food

Post by Ellie » 25 Feb 2018, 22:58

JasonL wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 21:08
Jennifer wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 20:05
I have apparently discovered that homemade mayonnaise-based sauces can NOT be frozen for later use, because when they thaw they break apart into different liquids and gels which refuse to blend back together again.
Correct. You can't really ever freeze an emulsion.
Genuine question -- what is ice cream, then?
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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JasonL
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Re: Food

Post by JasonL » 25 Feb 2018, 23:47

Ha! An emulsion. If your suspension involves water there is a concentration effect where oil or fat globules get squashed together in the crystal which then pool when thawed. It takes fairly exotic chemistry to get Salisbury steak sauce to remain stable in a frozen dinner. I guess ice cream is insufficiently aqueous?

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Jennifer
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Re: Food

Post by Jennifer » 26 Feb 2018, 01:46

JasonL wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 23:47
Ha! An emulsion. If your suspension involves water there is a concentration effect where oil or fat globules get squashed together in the crystal which then pool when thawed. It takes fairly exotic chemistry to get Salisbury steak sauce to remain stable in a frozen dinner. I guess ice cream is insufficiently aqueous?
The rule is "You can't freeze an emulsion unless it's frozen when you buy it, in which case you can't thaw and then re-freeze the emulsion." Which, in fact, you can't do with ice cream.

I remain annoyed about the jalapeno mayonnaise sauce, though.
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Jadagul
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Re: Food

Post by Jadagul » 26 Feb 2018, 05:34

I was curious about this, so I looked it up. Ice cream is actually a partially broken emulsion.
the American Chemical Society wrote: In the case of milk, each fat droplet is coated with a layer of milk proteins that prevents the fat droplets from interacting with one another. These milk proteins act as “emulsifiers”— substances that stabilize emulsions and allow the liquid droplets present in the emulsion to remain dispersed, instead of clumping together. Because these milk proteins have a nonpolar side, and because like dissolves like, the nonpolar sides of the proteins are attracted to the nonpolar fat globules. This is good in milk, but not so good in ice cream, in which the fat droplets should coalesce to trap air.

So another emulsifier is added to allow the fat droplets to coalesce. This emulsifier replaces milk proteins on the surface of the fat droplets, leading to a thinner membrane, which is more likely to coalesce during whipping. A common emulsifier is lecithin, found in egg yolks.
So cream stays emulsified really well because some milk proteins make really good emulsifiers. Ice cream actually replaces those with weaker emulsifiers so the emulsion breaks down a bit and the ice cream can functionally take on some of the texture of whipped cream.

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lunchstealer
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Re: Food

Post by lunchstealer » 26 Feb 2018, 12:49

I think also it's being mixed as it's frozen, and it remains semi-liquid due to the sugar content in the water itself.

Mayo has natural emulsifiers from the egg yolks, but probably freezes solid, as there's not much dissolved in the water.
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Jasper
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Re: Food

Post by Jasper » 26 Feb 2018, 13:22

Last week I asked my wife to remember to pick up "those small, hot peppers for stir-frys" because I couldn't remember the correct name for them. Tien Tsin, or dried Chinese red chiles. In the moment, and in the rush of a text, I assumed she'd know what I meant.

She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros. The label was useless, otherwise. I told my wife not to worry, I'd figure out something to do with them, thinking I light look up a fresh jerk rub or something I could prep and maybe freeze until grilling weather.

Got home on Friday, and wife had decided to make chili. Used 3/4 of the pack, probably 6 - 8 peppers, into a 2-lb. batch of chili. On top of the usual red pepper flakes and chipotle powder.

If you add 20 - 25% cheese to it, the sweats only last an hour or so.
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dhex
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Re: Food

Post by dhex » 26 Feb 2018, 13:26

Yeah that's quite a bit for a single pot.
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Andrew
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Re: Food

Post by Andrew » 26 Feb 2018, 15:18

Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
Last week I asked my wife to remember to pick up "those small, hot peppers for stir-frys" because I couldn't remember the correct name for them. Tien Tsin, or dried Chinese red chiles. In the moment, and in the rush of a text, I assumed she'd know what I meant.

She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros. The label was useless, otherwise. I told my wife not to worry, I'd figure out something to do with them, thinking I light look up a fresh jerk rub or something I could prep and maybe freeze until grilling weather.

Got home on Friday, and wife had decided to make chili. Used 3/4 of the pack, probably 6 - 8 peppers, into a 2-lb. batch of chili. On top of the usual red pepper flakes and chipotle powder.

If you add 20 - 25% cheese to it, the sweats only last an hour or so.
Sounds perfect.
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Jadagul
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Re: Food

Post by Jadagul » 26 Feb 2018, 15:23

lunchstealer wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 12:49
I think also it's being mixed as it's frozen, and it remains semi-liquid due to the sugar content in the water itself.

Mayo has natural emulsifiers from the egg yolks, but probably freezes solid, as there's not much dissolved in the water.
The sugar pushes down the freezing point.

The mixing as it's frozen does two things. One is that it whips some air into it---this is what I meant when I said it's a little whipped-cream-like.

The other is that it keeps large ice crystals from forming. It's not that it's still semi-liquid; it's that it's a lot of small ice crystals rather than a few big ones. If you melt and re-freeze ice cream without the mixing step, it will freeze as one big sheet and be hard and unpleasant.

(This is why liquid nitrogen ice cream doesn't need to be mixed. It freezes so quickly that you get a lot of small crystals rather than a few big ones. And the evaporating nitrogen aerates it).

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Warren
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Re: Food

Post by Warren » 26 Feb 2018, 16:59

Jadagul wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 15:23
lunchstealer wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 12:49
I think also it's being mixed as it's frozen, and it remains semi-liquid due to the sugar content in the water itself.

Mayo has natural emulsifiers from the egg yolks, but probably freezes solid, as there's not much dissolved in the water.
The sugar pushes down the freezing point.

The mixing as it's frozen does two things. One is that it whips some air into it---this is what I meant when I said it's a little whipped-cream-like.

The other is that it keeps large ice crystals from forming. It's not that it's still semi-liquid; it's that it's a lot of small ice crystals rather than a few big ones. If you melt and re-freeze ice cream without the mixing step, it will freeze as one big sheet and be hard and unpleasant.

(This is why liquid nitrogen ice cream doesn't need to be mixed. It freezes so quickly that you get a lot of small crystals rather than a few big ones. And the evaporating nitrogen aerates it).
Sure sure. But the thing about ice cream is it doesn't break when it melts. Small crystals can't account for that.
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Kwix
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Re: Food

Post by Kwix » 26 Feb 2018, 18:18

Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
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Warren
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Re: Food

Post by Warren » 26 Feb 2018, 18:29

Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:18
Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
All chilies, being agricultural products, have great variation. You have to taste them to know how strong they are before cooking with them. If you don't want to take a nibble, there are alternative methods. For instance, you can cook a small piece in oil and then dip bread in it.
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Kwix
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Re: Food

Post by Kwix » 26 Feb 2018, 19:02

Warren wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:29
Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:18
Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
All chilies, being agricultural products, have great variation. You have to taste them to know how strong they are before cooking with them. If you don't want to take a nibble, there are alternative methods. For instance, you can cook a small piece in oil and then dip bread in it.
I like the oil n' bread idea. The problem is purchase. When a recipe calls for "3 habenero" how many do I need to buy?
"pedialyte is like planned parenthood for hangovers. it costs you a bit, but it makes your little problem go away until the next time you drink too much."-- dhex
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Warren
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Re: Food

Post by Warren » 26 Feb 2018, 19:07

Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 19:02
When a recipe calls for "3 habenero" how many do I need to buy?
There I can not help you. Except to say, how much heat you put in is a matter of taste. Buy half a dozen and spice your dish to what you like. Keep the rest in the crisper. If you don't use them in a month you may have to throw them away. Or you can dry what you don't use. I've never tried habeneros, but I've had success drying other chilies just by cutting the stem end off and leaving them out on the counter.
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Jadagul
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Re: Food

Post by Jadagul » 26 Feb 2018, 19:12

Warren wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 16:59
Jadagul wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 15:23
lunchstealer wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 12:49
I think also it's being mixed as it's frozen, and it remains semi-liquid due to the sugar content in the water itself.

Mayo has natural emulsifiers from the egg yolks, but probably freezes solid, as there's not much dissolved in the water.
The sugar pushes down the freezing point.

The mixing as it's frozen does two things. One is that it whips some air into it---this is what I meant when I said it's a little whipped-cream-like.

The other is that it keeps large ice crystals from forming. It's not that it's still semi-liquid; it's that it's a lot of small ice crystals rather than a few big ones. If you melt and re-freeze ice cream without the mixing step, it will freeze as one big sheet and be hard and unpleasant.

(This is why liquid nitrogen ice cream doesn't need to be mixed. It freezes so quickly that you get a lot of small crystals rather than a few big ones. And the evaporating nitrogen aerates it).
Sure sure. But the thing about ice cream is it doesn't break when it melts. Small crystals can't account for that.

Sure. I'm pretty sure that's because it has a shitload of emulsifiers in it. Like, I think just plain cream also doesn't break when it melts---and then you add in more emulsifiers in the form of egg yolks. But apparently the milk proteins are a _better_ emulsifier.

I was responding to Lunch's comment that mayo freezes solid, which is a different issue. The reason ice cream doesn't freeze solid is the mixing keeps crystals small. The reason it doesn't break when it melts is probably because of good emulsifiers but I'm guessing there.

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dhex
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Re: Food

Post by dhex » 27 Feb 2018, 11:02

Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 19:02
Warren wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:29
Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:18
Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
All chilies, being agricultural products, have great variation. You have to taste them to know how strong they are before cooking with them. If you don't want to take a nibble, there are alternative methods. For instance, you can cook a small piece in oil and then dip bread in it.
I like the oil n' bread idea. The problem is purchase. When a recipe calls for "3 habenero" how many do I need to buy?
you can always brush them with olive oil and roast them, which helps make mediocre peppers taste better as well as moderating the heat levels slightly.
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Warren
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Re: Food

Post by Warren » 27 Feb 2018, 11:09

dhex wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 11:02
Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 19:02
Warren wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:29
Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:18
Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
All chilies, being agricultural products, have great variation. You have to taste them to know how strong they are before cooking with them. If you don't want to take a nibble, there are alternative methods. For instance, you can cook a small piece in oil and then dip bread in it.
I like the oil n' bread idea. The problem is purchase. When a recipe calls for "3 habenero" how many do I need to buy?
you can always brush them with olive oil and roast them, which helps make mediocre peppers taste better as well as moderating the heat levels slightly.
Check. There are any number of ways of tempering the heat. Once you find a method you like, you need to standardize and stick with it so that you can accurately gauge the raw heat, and adjust recipes accordingly.
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Jasper
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Re: Food

Post by Jasper » 27 Feb 2018, 12:48

Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 18:18
Jasper wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 13:22
She brought home one of those cellophane packs of something called "Jamaican Hot Peppers" that looked suspiciously like large habaneros.
Probably a Scotch Bonnet pepper. It's almost identical to a habanero which, for my money, is too variable in heat. Everything I cook with habanero ends up either over or under spicy but never "just right". Perhaps I am just doing it wrong.
That's probably it. I also have a dim memory of the scotch-bonnet being popular/plentiful in Jamaican cooking now that you mention it. Total brain-fart on me for not recalling that.
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lunchstealer
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Re: Food

Post by lunchstealer » 27 Feb 2018, 14:16

I always thought that scotch bonnets were just another name for habaneros.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Food

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 27 Feb 2018, 14:24

Warren wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 19:07
Kwix wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 19:02
When a recipe calls for "3 habenero" how many do I need to buy?
There I can not help you. Except to say, how much heat you put in is a matter of taste. Buy half a dozen and spice your dish to what you like. Keep the rest in the crisper. If you don't use them in a month you may have to throw them away. Or you can dry what you don't use. I've never tried habeneros, but I've had success drying other chilies just by cutting the stem end off and leaving them out on the counter.
Yeah, they're are cheap too. The by the pound price is high but even ten weigh practically nothing.
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dhex
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Re: Food

Post by dhex » 27 Feb 2018, 15:12

lunchstealer wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 14:16
I always thought that scotch bonnets were just another name for habaneros.
they're really close, but the bonnets are more fruity tasting and ultimately better. but again, really really close.
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JasonL
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Re: Food

Post by JasonL » 27 Feb 2018, 15:46

I am getting pretty decent at the ancho, pasilla, arbol, negro/mulato, guajillo type chili composition. My max heat is like serranos. I’ll use one habanero here and there if I have sugar to help, but I can’t tell the difference at that capsaicin level between bonnets and habaneros. Can’t detect fruity at that heat.

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Jennifer
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Re: Food

Post by Jennifer » 06 Mar 2018, 14:14

Tried a recipe for pork roast in a "creamy mustard sauce" (from a Betty Crocker slow-cooker recipe book): hyoooooooge disappointment. The sauce tasted neither mustardy nor creamy; if anything, it was rather sweet, and I prefer savory over sweet when eating meat. Jeff did at least like the texture of the pork itself (although I thought even THAT was blah -- pork meat on its own has NO flavor whatsover). Yecch.
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Kwix
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Re: Food

Post by Kwix » 06 Mar 2018, 14:35

Jennifer wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 14:14
pork meat on its own has NO flavor whatsover
I just don't know what to say to that Jadenifer.
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Jennifer
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Re: Food

Post by Jennifer » 06 Mar 2018, 15:26

Kwix wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 14:35
Jennifer wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 14:14
pork meat on its own has NO flavor whatsover
I just don't know what to say to that Jadenifer.
You say "Indeed yes, and that's why every pork-based culinary tradition entails dolling up the pork with flavorful sauces or spice rubs. Too bad that creamy mustard sauce you tried was such a hyooooooooge disappointment." (If you're a bit on the cold-hearted side, you can then add "But I can't feel too sorry for you, because you should've known to expect blandness from an unadulterated Betty Crocker recipe. You personally have complained about that many times, remember?")
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