Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jasper » 10 May 2018, 07:58

Jake wrote:
09 May 2018, 11:00
Jasper wrote:
09 May 2018, 10:53
Man, you guys are a bunch of nerds.

What made my toast land butter-side-down, setting the whole rest of the movie up for angry nit-picking at shoddy writing and plot holes, was space bomber pilot having to climb down into the bomb bay to retrieve a garage bomb door opener, being exposed to the hard vacuum of space with no ill effects, and then dropping bombs onto the Star Destroyer.

Dropping bombs. In space.

[combo facepalm & headdesk emoji]
Star Wars has a long tradition of energy shields covering what look like giant holes into space. Note all of the people walking around in various Death Star landing bays as ships fly in and out. The end of the bomber that opens up probably has the same sort of arrangement, I figure, so there wouldn't be any hard vacuum involved.

The "dropping bombs" bit is more difficult to explain away. I posit some sort of "choosy" magnetic bomb technology, but I don't think I've got any canonical support for that.
I'd grant you the energy fields as doors/windows if the bomb bay had that signature look of a white light band around the opening that all the docking bays have. I didn't notice it though, which is why it annoyed me so much.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Warren » 11 May 2018, 09:37

Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2018, 22:12
The problem is the argument: "Okay, these people sell weapons to the First Order, so that makes them bad. So people who are dealing with them are bad people. But they also sell weapons to the Resistance. That means the Resistance is dealing with them, and thus they're also bad people."

The movie can't make up its mind whether the First Order is bad and so that speaks ill of the weapons dealers, or whether the weapons dealers are bad and so that speaks ill of anyone who buys from them. It's pretty confused in a way that I can totally imagine Rose being confused but (1) I don't think del Toro would be confused in the same way, and (2) I think it reflects the same confusion from the filmmakers.
That's actually pretty close to my view of the entire and ongoing history of the Middle East.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by dhex » 11 May 2018, 13:48

Shem wrote:
09 May 2018, 22:26
dhex wrote:
09 May 2018, 09:01
Still seems less trivial than you know planets that are also space ships.
The only slug crimelord that takes a check in our world is orange and lives on Pennsylvania Avenue. For everyone else, there's hard currency. Why would Star Wars be any different?
b/c space wizards.

i don't do the fiction like youse guys so i'm ok with handwaving away tech details etc because they are inherently anti-good-storytelling. it gives del toro a chance to be a complete asshole monologuist. as a visual device it's ok, but i find it a pointless throwback to the first film and kinda weird.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by JD » 11 May 2018, 14:00

dhex wrote:
11 May 2018, 13:48
i don't do the fiction like youse guys so i'm ok with handwaving away tech details etc because they are inherently anti-good-storytelling.
Yeah, this. Star Wars is space opera. It is not hard SF, the efforts of neckbeards to retcon everything notwithstanding. We are watching a drama with space wizards with laser swords. Asking why this or why that is kind of missing the fact that we're watching a Flash Gordon serial writ large.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Painboy » 12 May 2018, 20:28

JD wrote:
11 May 2018, 14:00
dhex wrote:
11 May 2018, 13:48
i don't do the fiction like youse guys so i'm ok with handwaving away tech details etc because they are inherently anti-good-storytelling.
Yeah, this. Star Wars is space opera. It is not hard SF, the efforts of neckbeards to retcon everything notwithstanding. We are watching a drama with space wizards with laser swords. Asking why this or why that is kind of missing the fact that we're watching a Flash Gordon serial writ large.
The space wizard thing shouldn't be a dodge though. I don't think most complaints are about realistic physics or what not. No one who likes the earlier stuff would still be sticking around to complain about it if that's what they were mad about. There doesn't need to be "realistic" physics but there does need to be some internal consistency from film to film (or other media). If there isn't it just feels like the writers are just contriving stuff with no bearing on prior events.

For instance if all it takes to do serious damage or destroy a big ship is to hyperspace into it why didn't the rebels do that to the original death star? Hell why didn't they do it at the beginning of The Last Jedi instead of losing all those other ships? Instead of feeling triumphant or exultant it just feels cheap. The writers needed something to happen there so they just wrote it in without bothering to justify it with other aspects of the larger story. Some may be fine with that but it just pulls me right out the movie. I want to see protagonists who are clever and resourceful in the universe they occupy, not people who just get handed wins by writers only out of a need to advance the plot.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 12 May 2018, 22:33

Painboy wrote:
12 May 2018, 20:28
For instance if all it takes to do serious damage or destroy a big ship is to hyperspace into it why didn't the rebels do that to the original death star?
Because they didn't have any ships with enough mass to destroy a small planet. The Executor crashing into Death Star II doesn't even seem to impact its functioning at all, and Executor was the largest capital ship in the galaxy at that point, and significantly larger than anything the Alliance could field.
Hell why didn't they do it at the beginning of The Last Jedi instead of losing all those other ships?


Because ships are hella expensive, and those ones we see there are literally the last ones the Resistance has, so chucking them away on a suicide mission that'd just lead the rest of the Armada to continue after they pulled their jaws of the floor would have led to everyone dying sooner. She does it when she does to serve as a distraction so that the shuttles can sneak to the old base they were heading for from the start. It just didn't work because of the betrayal.

I get that stuff needs a degree of consistency, but sometimes it feels like people ignore the fact that consistency is there and perfectly valid because they don't like the aesthetic choices.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Painboy » 12 May 2018, 23:26

Shem wrote:
12 May 2018, 22:33
Painboy wrote:
12 May 2018, 20:28
For instance if all it takes to do serious damage or destroy a big ship is to hyperspace into it why didn't the rebels do that to the original death star?
Because they didn't have any ships with enough mass to destroy a small planet. The Executor crashing into Death Star II doesn't even seem to impact its functioning at all, and Executor was the largest capital ship in the galaxy at that point, and significantly larger than anything the Alliance could field.
Hell why didn't they do it at the beginning of The Last Jedi instead of losing all those other ships?


Because ships are hella expensive, and those ones we see there are literally the last ones the Resistance has, so chucking them away on a suicide mission that'd just lead the rest of the Armada to continue after they pulled their jaws of the floor would have led to everyone dying sooner. She does it when she does to serve as a distraction so that the shuttles can sneak to the old base they were heading for from the start. It just didn't work because of the betrayal.

I get that stuff needs a degree of consistency, but sometimes it feels like people ignore the fact that consistency is there and perfectly valid because they don't like the aesthetic choices.
It wouldn't take more than one ship to disable the the Deathstar's main weapon. This doesn't even get into the ability to take out star destroyers with the odd stock freighter ship. If that had been a possibility the resistance wouldn't have had to use their weirdly slow bombers and they could have found any old junker with a hyperspace engine and wrecked the FO fleet.

There were plenty of other things they could have done for TLJ but chose one of the least imaginative. Which is strange given all the source material available out there.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 12 May 2018, 23:41

It takes the better part of a minute at best to plot a hyperspace course, even if you're apparently just planning to ram someone else. A standard-sized Star Destroyer could avoid this sort of attack by... moving out of the way. It only worked in TLJ because the ship they hit was so huge, it couldn't move fast enough to prevent the cruiser from calculating a hyperspace course that would hit.

I still can't quite believe how popular this argument is. Did the use of kamikaze attacks suddenly allow the Imperial Japanese Navy to turn the tide of the war?
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Painboy » 12 May 2018, 23:54

Shem wrote:
12 May 2018, 23:41
It takes the better part of a minute at best to plot a hyperspace course, even if you're apparently just planning to ram someone else. A standard-sized Star Destroyer could avoid this sort of attack by... moving out of the way. It only worked in TLJ because the ship they hit was so huge, it couldn't move fast enough to prevent the cruiser from calculating a hyperspace course that would hit.
Move out of the way? How are you going to move out of the way of something going lightspeed? How's that going to work for the Deathstar?

And again that brings up why didn't they do it to the massive dreadnaught thing at the beginning?

Kamikazes could be countered because they could be shot down before hitting anything. That's not going to work with something going lightspeed in an instant.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Ellie » 12 May 2018, 23:58

Shem wrote:
12 May 2018, 23:41
It only worked in TLJ because the ship they hit was so huge, it couldn't move fast enough to prevent the cruiser from calculating a hyperspace course that would hit.
I think there's a bit of dialogue where the captain of the bad guy ship* specifically says to another crewman to ignore Laura Dern's ship and pay attention to the shuttles. So it mainly only works in TLJ because in most other battles they'd see the ship getting ready for hyperspace but in this case they aren't looking.

* sorry to use such technical terminology
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 13 May 2018, 00:23

Painboy wrote:
12 May 2018, 23:54
Move out of the way? How are you going to move out of the way of something going lightspeed?
You literally quoted my answer to that. You use the minute or so it takes the hyperdrive to lock in coordinates and engage to move out of the path of the oncoming ship.
How's that going to work for the Deathstar?
One way is to use that giant planet-destroying turbolaser that only takes about 12 seconds to engage to shoot the ship that takes a minute to spin up the hyperdrive. Another way is to attack an enemy that doesn't actually have any capital ships, like the Alliance after they lost most of them recovering the plans to the Death Star.
Painboy wrote:And again that brings up why didn't they do it to the massive dreadnaught thing at the beginning?
I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading my posts, here
Shem wrote:
12 May 2018, 22:33
Because ships are hella expensive, and those ones we see there are literally the last ones the Resistance has, so chucking them away on a suicide mission that'd just lead the rest of the Armada to continue after they pulled their jaws of the floor would have led to everyone dying sooner. She does it when she does to serve as a distraction so that the shuttles can sneak to the old base they were heading for from the start. It just didn't work because of the betrayal.
Kamikazes could be countered because they could be shot down before hitting anything. That's not going to work with something going lightspeed in an instant.
It's not an instant. It has always taken a significant amount of time to engage a hyperdrive. Enough time for most ships to respond by going full speed perpendicular to the kamikaze ship before it can engage
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by JD » 14 May 2018, 17:03

So much retconning...so...much...retconning... Seriously, though, Painboy is hardly the first to notice the weird inconsistency that if this was such an effective tactic, you'd expect to have seen it used or at least mentioned before.

Also, if going to lightspeed is so massively destructive if there's anything in the way, it makes me wonder how they ensure there's never, say, a speck of dust in the path of any ship engaging hyperdrive...
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by thoreau » 14 May 2018, 17:18

JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:03
So much retconning...so...much...retconning... Seriously, though, Painboy is hardly the first to notice the weird inconsistency that if this was such an effective tactic, you'd expect to have seen it used or at least mentioned before.

Also, if going to lightspeed is so massively destructive if there's anything in the way, it makes me wonder how they ensure there's never, say, a speck of dust in the path of any ship engaging hyperdrive...
Presumably your ship's shields push the speck of dust ahead of you and everything is fine. Much like a speck of dust gets pushed ahead of your windshield. But your car can't push a bullet out of the way, and a starship's shields can't push a star destroyer out of the way, so one or both will be damaged in the collision.

There's plenty of bad physics in Star Wars, and plenty of bad writing in The Last Jedi, but starship collisions are the least of our problems here. The bigger problem is that the writing wasn't good enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by lunchstealer » 14 May 2018, 17:33

JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:03
So much retconning...so...much...retconning... Seriously, though, Painboy is hardly the first to notice the weird inconsistency that if this was such an effective tactic, you'd expect to have seen it used or at least mentioned before.

Also, if going to lightspeed is so massively destructive if there's anything in the way, it makes me wonder how they ensure there's never, say, a speck of dust in the path of any ship engaging hyperdrive...
I just assumed that it wasn't just making the jump to light speed, that she hyperjumped into the megacruiserthing. So the damage wasn't caused by the ship in hyperdrive, but by it coming out of hyperdrive in the middle of the ship.

Why it hasn't been used before - Eh, I can buy the retcon that it's hard enough to do successfully that it has been considered unfeasible previously and nobody seriously tried.

Remember that previously, a hyperjumped ship was effectively gone, and untrackable without a transponder/tracking device physically planted/hidden on the departing ship, a la the Millennium Falcon in ANH.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by JD » 14 May 2018, 20:12

lunchstealer wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:33
I just assumed that it wasn't just making the jump to light speed, that she hyperjumped into the megacruiserthing. So the damage wasn't caused by the ship in hyperdrive, but by it coming out of hyperdrive in the middle of the ship.
Given the way that the Supremacy seems neatly sliced in half by the Raddus, I feel pretty sure that it's "through" and not just "in the middle of".



There's been a lot of stuff written about it, but really it just comes down to space opera, rule of cool, and the writers unfortunately changing the rules in the middle of the game.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Painboy » 14 May 2018, 20:13

thoreau wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:18
JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:03
So much retconning...so...much...retconning... Seriously, though, Painboy is hardly the first to notice the weird inconsistency that if this was such an effective tactic, you'd expect to have seen it used or at least mentioned before.

Also, if going to lightspeed is so massively destructive if there's anything in the way, it makes me wonder how they ensure there's never, say, a speck of dust in the path of any ship engaging hyperdrive...
Presumably your ship's shields push the speck of dust ahead of you and everything is fine. Much like a speck of dust gets pushed ahead of your windshield. But your car can't push a bullet out of the way, and a starship's shields can't push a star destroyer out of the way, so one or both will be damaged in the collision.

There's plenty of bad physics in Star Wars, and plenty of bad writing in The Last Jedi, but starship collisions are the least of our problems here. The bigger problem is that the writing wasn't good enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
I agree about the writing being the main problem and I think that some of the ship stuff was a symptom of that bad writing. I just don't feel like the current creative group they have helming this really have a good grasp of what makes a good Star Wars movie. They get a lot of surface stuff right but it's only a veneer.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Shem » 15 May 2018, 00:02

Painboy wrote:
14 May 2018, 20:13
thoreau wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:18
JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:03
So much retconning...so...much...retconning... Seriously, though, Painboy is hardly the first to notice the weird inconsistency that if this was such an effective tactic, you'd expect to have seen it used or at least mentioned before.

Also, if going to lightspeed is so massively destructive if there's anything in the way, it makes me wonder how they ensure there's never, say, a speck of dust in the path of any ship engaging hyperdrive...
Presumably your ship's shields push the speck of dust ahead of you and everything is fine. Much like a speck of dust gets pushed ahead of your windshield. But your car can't push a bullet out of the way, and a starship's shields can't push a star destroyer out of the way, so one or both will be damaged in the collision.

There's plenty of bad physics in Star Wars, and plenty of bad writing in The Last Jedi, but starship collisions are the least of our problems here. The bigger problem is that the writing wasn't good enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
I agree about the writing being the main problem and I think that some of the ship stuff was a symptom of that bad writing. I just don't feel like the current creative group they have helming this really have a good grasp of what makes a good Star Wars movie. They get a lot of surface stuff right but it's only a veneer.
But that takes us back to our old discussion; the original movies are almost entirely veneer themselves. 90% of the detail and flavor fans geek out over comes from the novels, comics, games, or TV shows. Is it that the new movies are all veneer, or is it that you're harder to impress than you were when you first saw the OT?
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jasper » 15 May 2018, 11:15

thoreau wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:18
JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:03
There's plenty of bad physics in Star Wars, and plenty of bad writing in The Last Jedi, but starship collisions are the least of our problems here. The bigger problem is that the writing wasn't good enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
Bold added - this is exactly my problem with the film, in a much more succinct phrase.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by lunchstealer » 15 May 2018, 12:48

JD wrote:
14 May 2018, 20:12
lunchstealer wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:33
I just assumed that it wasn't just making the jump to light speed, that she hyperjumped into the megacruiserthing. So the damage wasn't caused by the ship in hyperdrive, but by it coming out of hyperdrive in the middle of the ship.
Given the way that the Supremacy seems neatly sliced in half by the Raddus, I feel pretty sure that it's "through" and not just "in the middle of".



There's been a lot of stuff written about it, but really it just comes down to space opera, rule of cool, and the writers unfortunately changing the rules in the middle of the game.
The biggest issue is "why wasn't this used on the Death Star?" although possibly the idea was that any ship that was close enough to see a way to plot a course into the Death Star would be in range of megaweapon. Our shields can't repel retconning of that magnitude.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by JD » 15 May 2018, 13:05

lunchstealer wrote:
15 May 2018, 12:48
The biggest issue is "why wasn't this used on the Death Star?" although possibly the idea was that any ship that was close enough to see a way to plot a course into the Death Star would be in range of megaweapon.
Except that multiple Alliance ships seemed to be pretty close (up to and including flying directly into the Death Star, although I will grant that an X-Wing is probably not big enough to do that kind of damage) -
Our shields can't repel retconning of that magnitude.
- but yeah, this.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Mo » 15 May 2018, 13:37

JD wrote:
15 May 2018, 13:05
lunchstealer wrote:
15 May 2018, 12:48
The biggest issue is "why wasn't this used on the Death Star?" although possibly the idea was that any ship that was close enough to see a way to plot a course into the Death Star would be in range of megaweapon.
Except that multiple Alliance ships seemed to be pretty close (up to and including flying directly into the Death Star, although I will grant that an X-Wing is probably not big enough to do that kind of damage)
And this would only apply to the 2nd Death Star, as the frigates the rebels had at Yavin were probably not big enough either. I would suspect the only thing that would work that the rebels had was something on the order of a Calamari Cruiser. Things never go so desperate that they had to resort to that. Also, you may be able to handwave that planet generated shields are sufficiently powerful enough to repel a ship in a way that ship generated ones are not.
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 May 2018, 14:27

You guys should be incels.

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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 May 2018, 20:58

This character is inconsistently written:


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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by lunchstealer » 15 May 2018, 22:07

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
15 May 2018, 14:27
You guys should be incels.
This gets girls hot yo
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Re: Powerful Mice in Space (The New Star Wars Gripe Thread)

Post by Jasper » 16 May 2018, 13:58

Jasper wrote:
15 May 2018, 11:15
thoreau wrote:
14 May 2018, 17:18
There's plenty of bad physics in Star Wars, and plenty of bad writing in The Last Jedi, but starship collisions are the least of our problems here. The bigger problem is that the writing wasn't good enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
Bold added - this is exactly my problem with the film, in a much more succinct phrase.
Ah, shit. Just realized I fucked up the quoting a few posts up. Sorry JD & t. Fixed.
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