A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by dead_elvis » 31 Jul 2017, 08:10

Ruh roh, Tyrion's in trouble...

Yeah, that was not a great episode. This issue of Strategy & Tactics was fun (though I also have issues with timelines, going back to last season), but I felt like all the dialogue scenes were flat and unimaginative. Even Cersei's poisoning of the daughter was plain old eye for an eye justice, but I was expecting something a little more creative (not that I relish torture porn or anything).

So who's the mole on Danaerys's small council? Or is it Varys's former little bird network?
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2017, 08:45

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 31 Jul 2017, 20:30

dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 08:10
Even Cersei's poisoning of the daughter was plain old eye for an eye justice, but I was expecting something a little more creative (not that I relish torture porn or anything).
I'm going to disagree. Cersei is a cunt to be sure. But ever since she set golem Sir Gregor on the nun, I've enjoyed her little "you fucked me so now I'm going to fuck you" speeches.

So who's the mole on Danaerys's small council? Or is it Varys's former little bird network?
I don't know that there is a mole. Jamie correctly predicted they'd land at Dragon stone and Euron was already hunting his sister.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 31 Jul 2017, 20:37

dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 08:10
Even Cersei's poisoning of the daughter was plain old eye for an eye justice, but I was expecting something a little more creative (not that I relish torture porn or anything).
Killing the daughter is straight eye-for-an-eye, but ensuring that Ellaria will then have to watch her daughter rot away, and spend the rest of her life looking at said daughter's skeleton? That, I must admit, is an act of psychological-torture genius.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by dead_elvis » 31 Jul 2017, 21:47

Jennifer wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 20:37
dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 08:10
Even Cersei's poisoning of the daughter was plain old eye for an eye justice, but I was expecting something a little more creative (not that I relish torture porn or anything).
Killing the daughter is straight eye-for-an-eye, but ensuring that Ellaria will then have to watch her daughter rot away, and spend the rest of her life looking at said daughter's skeleton? That, I must admit, is an act of psychological-torture genius.
Warren wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 20:30
I'm going to disagree. Cersei is a cunt to be sure. But ever since she set golem Sir Gregor on the nun, I've enjoyed her little "you fucked me so now I'm going to fuck you" speeches.
That's the thing, I was expecting something a little more long and slow torturous, possibly involving Sir Gregor. I don't want to explore the depravity of my imagination, but there are some pretty gruesome possibilities. I mean, the poison killed Marcella relatively quickly, though Cersei said something about it might possibly take a few weeks? One could draw out the torture and suffering for *years* before death. And honestly I think giving her the nun treatment would be worse than poisoning.
I don't know that there is a mole. Jamie correctly predicted they'd land at Dragon stone and Euron was already hunting his sister.
You could be right, just seems like they know all the troop movements a little *too* perfectly. But that also could just be "we need the plot to go here" laziness.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 31 Jul 2017, 22:23

dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 21:47
That's the thing, I was expecting something a little more long and slow torturous...the poison killed Marcella relatively quickly...
Ah but the death of her daughter is but the beginning. She is to be kept alive chained to the wall as her daughter's body (presumably also chained to a wall) rots, and is consumed by rats and maggots, and for years after as the skeleton "turns to dust".
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 31 Jul 2017, 22:25

Okay this is bothering me. Tyrion tells the Queen:
A wise man once said: You shouldn't believe a thing just because you want to.
Was that something we've heard before? Who said it and when?
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2017, 22:27

Warren wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 22:23
dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 21:47
That's the thing, I was expecting something a little more long and slow torturous...the poison killed Marcella relatively quickly...
Ah but the death of her daughter is but the beginning. She is to be kept alive chained to the wall as her daughter's body (presumably also chained to a wall) rots, and is consumed by rats and maggots, and for years after as the skeleton "turns to dust".
All the while contemplating your decisions.
And not having to be on camera for the remainder of the series.

And why do all the internet recap people think it's out of character for Randyll Tarly to turn on the Tyrells? He was going to fucking kill Sam and spend the rest of his life telling Sam's mother/his wife that Sam died in a hunting accident...
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2017, 22:30

Warren wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 22:25
Okay this is bothering me. Tyrion tells the Queen:
A wise man once said: You shouldn't believe a thing just because you want to.
Was that something we've heard before? Who said it and when?
In Meereen, while Dany was away, he made some similar wiseish-sounding statement and someone asked "who said that?" and he responded "me, just now". Dany wasn't buying it...
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 31 Jul 2017, 23:26

Taktix® wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 22:27
Warren wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 22:23
dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 21:47
That's the thing, I was expecting something a little more long and slow torturous...the poison killed Marcella relatively quickly...
Ah but the death of her daughter is but the beginning. She is to be kept alive chained to the wall as her daughter's body (presumably also chained to a wall) rots, and is consumed by rats and maggots, and for years after as the skeleton "turns to dust".
All the while contemplating your decisions.
And not having to be on camera for the remainder of the series.

And why do all the internet recap people think it's out of character for Randyll Tarly to turn on the Tyrells? He was going to fucking kill Sam and spend the rest of his life telling Sam's mother/his wife that Sam died in a hunting accident...
Paterfamilias. Clearly, you know nothing of honor.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 31 Jul 2017, 23:34

Another problem with last night's episode: Highgarden fell way too quickly. One of the major castles of Westeros, held by one of the richest families on the continent ... they should've been able to withstand a siege for months, if not years.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 01 Aug 2017, 00:16

Jennifer wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 23:34
Another problem with last night's episode: Highgarden fell way too quickly. One of the major castles of Westeros, held by one of the richest families on the continent ... they should've been able to withstand a siege for months, if not years.
Yeah. I gotta admit. They're phoning in the plot contrivances.
But I still love the characters. Like Dianna Rigg asking "Did we fight well"?
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by dead_elvis » 01 Aug 2017, 09:02

Jennifer wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 23:34
Another problem with last night's episode: Highgarden fell way too quickly. One of the major castles of Westeros, held by one of the richest families on the continent ... they should've been able to withstand a siege for months, if not years.
The post-episode analysis guy I usually watch noted something similar and thought that perhaps they didn't want to spend time and money on yet another big budget battle that the Lannisters were going to win anyway, and they hoped we'd swallow just skipping that because they are supposed to not have a very effective army compared to the Lannisters. Which I appreciate, I don't think we need to see a big bloody battle more than a couple times a season. As for siege, I dunno, it *is* possible to storm and take a castle, and seasoned vs. unseasoned troops would make a big difference.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by dead_elvis » 01 Aug 2017, 09:07

Warren wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 22:23
dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 21:47
That's the thing, I was expecting something a little more long and slow torturous...the poison killed Marcella relatively quickly...
Ah but the death of her daughter is but the beginning. She is to be kept alive chained to the wall as her daughter's body (presumably also chained to a wall) rots, and is consumed by rats and maggots, and for years after as the skeleton "turns to dust".
All the while contemplating your decisions.
My position is that

(any punishment) < (any punishment)+(a year or more of having to watch Sir Gregor torture and have his way with her before that same punishment)
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by JasonL » 01 Aug 2017, 09:11

Glad to see the quality of torture and killing of characters is still what keeps em coming back.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Taktix® » 01 Aug 2017, 09:27

dead_elvis wrote:
01 Aug 2017, 09:02
Jennifer wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 23:34
Another problem with last night's episode: Highgarden fell way too quickly. One of the major castles of Westeros, held by one of the richest families on the continent ... they should've been able to withstand a siege for months, if not years.
The post-episode analysis guy I usually watch noted something similar and thought that perhaps they didn't want to spend time and money on yet another big budget battle that the Lannisters were going to win anyway, and they hoped we'd swallow just skipping that because they are supposed to not have a very effective army compared to the Lannisters. Which I appreciate, I don't think we need to see a big bloody battle more than a couple times a season. As for siege, I dunno, it *is* possible to storm and take a castle, and seasoned vs. unseasoned troops would make a big difference.
Yeah, but they could have written around it. Maybe have (Tyrell bannerman) Randyll Tarly's flipping sides be more impactful with a surprise attack on his own non-Tarly Reacher forces or something. Unfortunately they gave up on plot writing sometime around season 5...
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 01 Aug 2017, 12:06

JasonL wrote:
01 Aug 2017, 09:11
Glad to see the quality of torture and killing of characters is still what keeps em coming back.
Well that, and the fact that she got so excited at fulfilling her torture fantasies that she graped her brother (no means nothing if you're the queen) straight away.
But that goes without saying.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 01 Aug 2017, 17:24

I'm glad they didn't show the battle of Highgarden (personally, I've always found extended battle or fight scenes boring, and would always prefer they just cut to the end and let us know what important-to-the-plot things happened: who won, who lost, did any major characters die,etc.), but at the very least, during Jaime and Olenna's discussion afterwards, they could've included a brief one-line mention of it -- Olenna saying something about "these past few weeks" or something. We know why the battle for Casterly Rock ended as quickly as it did -- Tyrion had a secret sewer entrance, and to make matters worse, it turns out the bulk of the Lannister army wasn't there in the first place -- but there was nothing to indicate how or why Highgarden should've fallen just as quickly.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 01 Aug 2017, 18:21

but there was nothing to indicate how or why Highgarden should've fallen just as quickly.
Olenna asks "Did we fight well?" Jamie replies "As well as can be expected" and then she says "It was never our forte. Golden roses indeed."
Not sure if that answers your question.

I'm generally happy with the inclusion and exclusion of battle scenes. I could have done with less of the Battle against the White Walkers. I know some people objected to the Battle of Castle Black taking up a whole episode, but I quite enjoyed it. Especially the six that held the gate.
OTOH The battle where Tyrion was to lead the Hill Tribes happened off screen while he was unconscious, and we got the results when he did.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 01 Aug 2017, 18:25

Warren wrote:
01 Aug 2017, 18:21
but there was nothing to indicate how or why Highgarden should've fallen just as quickly.
Olenna asks "Did we fight well?" Jamie replies "As well as can be expected" and then she says "It was never our forte. Golden roses indeed."
Not sure if that answers your question.
It doesn't; there's still nothing to indicate how long the battle actually lasted, or how much time passed between "Olenna stands on her balcony and sees the Lannister army approach" and "Olenna, apparently wearing the same clothes, sits in her chamber when Jaime walks in." I know this show has never been super-specific about timelines, but this season thus far has been utterly ridiculous even by the already-low standard the series has set.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by MJGreen » 02 Aug 2017, 23:57

Agreed with Jennifer. It's the right move to cut out the whole battle or siege and get to the dramatic bits, but the way it's cut makes it look like Olenna sees the army approaching, then Jaime strolls right into the city. She's wearing the same clothing and the lighting does not noticeably change, so it's as if the scenes are only minutes apart.

A simple comment that Tarly knew how to pierce the castle's defenses - Jaime might want to gloat that he convinced her most prestigious bannerman to switch sides - would have gone a long way to making the otherwise good scene feel less lazy. Instead, we went from Grey Worm infiltrating the Rock the same way he did Meereen, to Euron conveniently showing up again, to a castle falling in an afternoon. I can roll with the compressed plotting, but they could do to make it a bit more elegant.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2017, 00:52

The previous seasons felt like a show based on Martin's detailed books; this season feels more like a show based on the Cliff's Notes of a book. Or the bullet-point plot outline Martin intends to turn into a book.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 03 Aug 2017, 08:50

Jennifer wrote:
03 Aug 2017, 00:52
The previous seasons felt like a show based on Martin's detailed books; this season feels more like a show based on the Cliff's Notes of a book. Or the bullet-point plot outline Martin intends to turn into a book.
Which I imagine is basically what the showrunners got from GRRM.

I think much of the issue is the way the events contrasted with battles earlier in the shows run. Each of the battles in this episode would have previously been finales or a culmination of several shows. Cutting them both down to just a few minutes of exposition and some brief army scenes made it feel like we were missing an episode.

"Previously on Game of Thrones..."

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 03 Aug 2017, 08:59

Painboy wrote:
03 Aug 2017, 08:50
Jennifer wrote:
03 Aug 2017, 00:52
The previous seasons felt like a show based on Martin's detailed books; this season feels more like a show based on the Cliff's Notes of a book. Or the bullet-point plot outline Martin intends to turn into a book.
Which I imagine is basically what the showrunners got from GRRM.

I think much of the issue is the way the events contrasted with battles earlier in the shows run. Each of the battles in this episode would have previously been finales or a culmination of several shows. Cutting them both down to just a few minutes of exposition and some brief army scenes made it feel like we were missing an episode.

"Previously on Game of Thrones..."
I think they just figure they have to kill everyone extraneous except fan faves since we have two end games to get through in ten episodes. No, it isn't good.

Incidentally, if this how the showrunners are absent Martin, Confederate is a mistake.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 03 Aug 2017, 15:58

Painboy wrote:
03 Aug 2017, 08:50
Jennifer wrote:
03 Aug 2017, 00:52
The previous seasons felt like a show based on Martin's detailed books; this season feels more like a show based on the Cliff's Notes of a book. Or the bullet-point plot outline Martin intends to turn into a book.
Which I imagine is basically what the showrunners got from GRRM.

No doubt, but it still shows a lack of -- dunno if you'd call it imagination, or talent, or whatever else -- on the showrunners' part, that they can't expand it. GRRM presumably gave them an outline saying "Highgarden falls," and we see... Highgarden fall. No details or explanation regarding how or why, just -- boom! The army appears in the distance, and next thing we know, Highgarden's out of the game.
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