A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

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JasonL
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by JasonL » 19 Apr 2019, 09:06

They should have made hay sooner.
Season 5 - That’s after 2 entire seasons of torturing a dude into sub human status and showing us the whole thing, right? I know there were plenty of diversions like dad setting daughter on fire and rapes and such too, but still some might suggest there’s not much to redeem when the essence of the thing is wallowing in the dregs of the meat grinder.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 19 Apr 2019, 18:02

I can empathize with Jason and JD's "Fuck this; I'm outta here" attitudes, but the sad irony (IMO) is that after suffering through all the suckitude, you quit JUST before the payoff!

It reminds me of a long-ago thread when I talked about how giving up shampoo turned out to be awesome for my hair -- there was an exchange that went something like this:
ME: When I quit shampoo, my hair looked like shit for about three weeks until my oil levels got back to normal; then it got better all at once.

SOMEONE ELSE: Harrumph. This no-shampoo thing doesn't work for me; I've tried it many times before, but always, after like two weeks and six days, I go back to shampoo because I can't take my hair's awfulness anymore.

ME: Ah, see, that's the problem: you only stick with it long enough to deal with the icky parts, then bug out just before the payoff.
So, yeah -- you guys stuck with Game of Thrones for two weeks and six days, then quit just before the payoff arrived.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by dead_elvis » 19 Apr 2019, 18:30

JD wrote:
18 Apr 2019, 21:31
I stopped watching a few seasons back, because while I don't mind major characters getting killed - in fact, it's an interesting twist -
And the fact that this was a twist that disappeared by season 7 made the show much less interesting. Knowing that certain characters are "protected" always kneecaps stories, and I feel like that set in last season. Littlefinger was the only significant death I can recall, and that was so poorly done it was hardly the kind of zinger previous deaths were.

I kinda wish they had come out swinging in season 8 by offing Dany or another significant player right off the bat just to wake the show out of its season 7 stupor. Remind the world that the cold uncaring universe does not notice your puny tidy narratives.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Apr 2019, 19:24

If only the Seven Kingdoms had a corrupt, mostly failed businessman and reality show host who could come out of nowhere to capture the Iron Throne!

Never mind. Too absurd for anyone to take seriously.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Pham Nuwen » 19 Apr 2019, 20:42

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 19:24
If only the Seven Kingdoms had a corrupt, mostly failed businessman and reality show host who could come out of nowhere to capture the Iron Throne!

Never mind. Too absurd for anyone to take seriously.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 19 Apr 2019, 21:31

At least the calls to "build the wall!" wouldn't sound so ridiculous.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 19 Apr 2019, 22:37

JasonL wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 09:06
They should have made hay sooner.
Season 5 - That’s after 2 entire seasons of torturing a dude into sub human status and showing us the whole thing, right? I know there were plenty of diversions like dad setting daughter on fire and rapes and such too, but still some might suggest there’s not much to redeem when the essence of the thing is wallowing in the dregs of the meat grinder.
This is again an issue with the show. In the books Theon just disappeared for a book or two and then turned up the husk of the man he became. The torture stuff was only referred to in the past and with descriptions only of the aftermath. Ramsey Bolton wasn't this ridiculous insane Marquis de Sade. He was actually kind of dour and humorless. He was terrifying not because he tortured people and laughed about it but because he was the proverbial bomb under the table. You never knew when it was going to go off. He could act merciful one instant and then become merciless the next.

They may have had their reasons to do it the way they did in the show but it was still a bad idea.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Pham Nuwen » 19 Apr 2019, 23:15

Painboy wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 22:37
JasonL wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 09:06
They should have made hay sooner.
Season 5 - That’s after 2 entire seasons of torturing a dude into sub human status and showing us the whole thing, right? I know there were plenty of diversions like dad setting daughter on fire and rapes and such too, but still some might suggest there’s not much to redeem when the essence of the thing is wallowing in the dregs of the meat grinder.
This is again an issue with the show. In the books Theon just disappeared for a book or two and then turned up the husk of the man he became. The torture stuff was only referred to in the past and with descriptions only of the aftermath. Ramsey Bolton wasn't this ridiculous insane Marquis de Sade. He was actually kind of dour and humorless. He was terrifying not because he tortured people and laughed about it but because he was the proverbial bomb under the table. You never knew when it was going to go off. He could act merciful one instant and then become merciless the next.

They may have had their reasons to do it the way they did in the show but it was still a bad idea.
It was done as filler and as torture porn. People love their torture porn.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 20 Apr 2019, 03:13

Pham Nuwen wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 23:15
Painboy wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 22:37
JasonL wrote:
19 Apr 2019, 09:06
They should have made hay sooner.
Season 5 - That’s after 2 entire seasons of torturing a dude into sub human status and showing us the whole thing, right? I know there were plenty of diversions like dad setting daughter on fire and rapes and such too, but still some might suggest there’s not much to redeem when the essence of the thing is wallowing in the dregs of the meat grinder.
This is again an issue with the show. In the books Theon just disappeared for a book or two and then turned up the husk of the man he became. The torture stuff was only referred to in the past and with descriptions only of the aftermath. Ramsey Bolton wasn't this ridiculous insane Marquis de Sade. He was actually kind of dour and humorless. He was terrifying not because he tortured people and laughed about it but because he was the proverbial bomb under the table. You never knew when it was going to go off. He could act merciful one instant and then become merciless the next.

They may have had their reasons to do it the way they did in the show but it was still a bad idea.
It was done as filler and as torture porn. People love their torture porn.
I haven't heard a single person say they liked any of that or that it added to the show in any positive way. At best I've heard some book readers say that it was unfortunately "necessary" because there was no way they could have disappeared Theon for a couple seasons. But I don't buy that was the only way they could have adapted the material.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 20 Apr 2019, 14:59

Painboy wrote:
20 Apr 2019, 03:13
I haven't heard a single person say they liked any of that or that it added to the show in any positive way. At best I've heard some book readers say that it was unfortunately "necessary" because there was no way they could have disappeared Theon for a couple seasons. But I don't buy that was the only way they could have adapted the material.
Especially since the show did manage to disappear Bran for a season or two, with no problems.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 20 Apr 2019, 15:09

I have no more of a problem with so-called torture porn than with sexually explicit material. If anything, the near-obligatory rutting scenes in contemporary films are every bit as gratuitous as the gore and wince-inducing torture scenes in GoT and similar "envelope pushing" fiction, adding nothing to the story than the legitimization of the film's R rating. Sure, in theory, every line of dialogue, every camera shot, every bit of action in a story should further it, enrich it, do something such that it would be a lesser story without it. But that's not a reasonable or even attainable standard to insist upon in any fiction ever. You want gratuitous? Ninety percent of the LOTR and Hobbit movies panning the countryside or zooming in on that stupid ring were filler. And if filler we must have, I'd rather have filler filled with sex and violence than scenic vistas and QVC jewelry close-ups.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 20 Apr 2019, 15:33

Was re-reading some earlier parts of this thread and -- wow, I sure was young and naive back in the day:
Jennifer wrote:
10 Jun 2014, 10:00
Kolohe wrote:
Jennifer wrote:They're going to have to cram a LOT of stuff into the season finale, after all the time they wasted dragging out other things.
They really only have to do one thing, and can leave the rest for next year.
Deliberately avoiding spoilers here, of course ... yeah, there's no absolute "NEED" for them to do anything or wind up any of the smaller story issues before the season's end -- and any unresolved issue automatically becomes a "cliffhanger" until the next seasons -- but IMO, they dragged this season out far more than they needed to. (Though I have wondered before if they're not deliberately doing that for fear they'll get to the end of the current books before GRRM produces any more.)
Was it really only five years ago that I thought GRRM would put out his final book before the series ended? Silly me.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 21 Apr 2019, 17:27

More table setting. More touching reunions. More conversations in which more characters learn what viewers already knew. Even less violence and sex. A handful of good lines. Biggest reveal: Lady Brienne is capable of grinning.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 21 Apr 2019, 23:04

That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 23 Apr 2019, 15:25

It's been awhile since the show gut-punched its viewers, so I figure we're overdue for a LOT of punches next episode.

Predictions: since Grey Worm and Missandei were talking about their plans for after the war, AND shared a very sweet kiss before Grey Worm went off to battle, at least one of them will die.

Ser Brienne looked happier than she likely ever felt before in her life -- she'll die.

Sam and Jorah said something about talking again after the battle -- one of them will die.

For all the work people have done to make Winterfell ready for battle --- including dragon-glass spikes on the battlements -- nobody said anything about burning or removing the many dead bodies in the crypt, where the women and children will be for "safety." Also, that very sweet and plucky little girl agreed to "defend" the crypt after Gilly said she'd feel safer with the little girl there to defend them -- I have a bad feeling that not only will the crypt become a slaughterhouse, but that sweet and plucky little girl will be one of the first casualties.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 23 Apr 2019, 18:48

Jennifer wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 23:04
That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
Really. After all the horrible and outrageous things that happen to people throughout this show you would think people would be desensitized to a rather tame PG-13 sex scene.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 23 Apr 2019, 18:58

Painboy wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 18:48
Jennifer wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 23:04
That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
Really. After all the horrible and outrageous things that happen to people throughout this show you would think people would be desensitized to a rather tame PG-13 sex scene.
I think you'd have to say that Jamie and Cersei's first sex scene wasn't at all gratuitous, whatever else it may have been.

Harking back to the after-episode discussion following S08E01, the show runners pointed out how Arya moved out of the way to let a kid watch the procession just as someone had made room for her when she was very young to watch the procession in Season 1, so given that we hadn't seen her as a sexually active woman before I took that scene as further closure on her status as a full fledged adult.

As I believe I said above, she's one of the very few principal characters who has largely remained admirable throughout, so following Jennifer's predictions I suppose I should anticipate her imminent death before the season is half over.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 23 Apr 2019, 20:33

Painboy wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 18:48
Jennifer wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 23:04
That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
Really. After all the horrible and outrageous things that happen to people throughout this show you would think people would be desensitized to a rather tame PG-13 sex scene.
Apparently there are/were people actually offended by this? Not that I have seen any such expressions of offense, but the responses to it: "Okay, so, Arya fans were fine with her becoming a shape-shifting assassin with some disturbingly sociopathic tendencies -- but Arya having sex is beyond the pale?"
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 23 Apr 2019, 21:37

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 18:58
Painboy wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 18:48
Jennifer wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 23:04
That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
Really. After all the horrible and outrageous things that happen to people throughout this show you would think people would be desensitized to a rather tame PG-13 sex scene.
I think you'd have to say that Jamie and Cersei's first sex scene wasn't at all gratuitous, whatever else it may have been.
True. I should've actually said "... wasn't either gratuitous or at least pretty fucked up." Or, better yet: "the only one in the entire series that wasn't some version of traumatic*, dysfunctional or just really fucked up."

*Well, except for the whole "Our likely deaths are imminent" thing....
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2019, 04:08

If Winterfell is somehow to survive, I wonder how they'll pull that off? Maybe something like "By chance, they kill the local head white walker, which makes the wights go down too. And the Night King isn't there, possibly because he's heading to King's Landing with his dragon."
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Apr 2019, 08:15

Jennifer wrote:
Painboy wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 18:48
Jennifer wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 23:04
That (completely unexpected) sex scene with Arya was probably the only one in the entire series that actually felt like it served a plot-or-characterization purpose, rather than just be gratuitous.
Really. After all the horrible and outrageous things that happen to people throughout this show you would think people would be desensitized to a rather tame PG-13 sex scene.
Apparently there are/were people actually offended by this? Not that I have seen any such expressions of offense, but the responses to it: "Okay, so, Arya fans were fine with her becoming a shape-shifting assassin with some disturbingly sociopathic tendencies -- but Arya having sex is beyond the pale?"
Kids can be psychos. It's amusing to watch if they don't live with you and it's not real.

Kids have sex. It's not something I want to watch. I was pretty sure Arya was over 14 and could've been as old as 21, but wasn't sure enough to wanna see t&a
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Taktix® » 24 Apr 2019, 13:05

Jennifer wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 15:25
For all the work people have done to make Winterfell ready for battle --- including dragon-glass spikes on the battlements -- nobody said anything about burning or removing the many dead bodies in the crypt, where the women and children will be for "safety." Also, that very sweet and plucky little girl agreed to "defend" the crypt after Gilly said she'd feel safer with the little girl there to defend them -- I have a bad feeling that not only will the crypt become a slaughterhouse, but that sweet and plucky little girl will be one of the first casualties.
I had this thought as well, and I really hope they don't go this direction.

Obviously, the books aren't this far along, but from what I can gather from the texts and informed fan speculation, something noble is supposed to come of the Winterfell crypts in the books (including the possibility of a hidden dragon egg). If the showrunners plan to shit on the Starks' linage by having them come back as wights, well, I am guessing that would be an especially masochistic deviation from the books and also fitting of the showrunners' M.O.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2019, 15:10

Taktix® wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 13:05

Obviously, the books aren't this far along, but from what I can gather from the texts and informed fan speculation, something noble is supposed to come of the Winterfell crypts in the books (including the possibility of a hidden dragon egg).
Huh, I didn't know about that. Of course, regarding book-only stuff, the show has changed from the books in so many ways it's now hard to tell how much book-stuff actually matters. (IIRC, didn't the book say something about a magical lost horn which, if found and blown, would bring down the wall? If GRRM planned to use THAT to kickstart the invasion of the dead, well, obviously the show went in a wildly different direction.)

I'm basing my "something wicked from the crypt comes" on a combination of things: the suspicion that all that talk about "safe in the crypts" is likely to be non-subtle ironic foreshadowing; those "future preview" scenes including Arya running through the crypts looking terrified, and Varys sitting in the crypt looking up with a terrified expression; and of course the entire business of "The reason the Night King is such a colossal threat is because any corpses get added to his army."
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2019, 19:39

Was reading some fan theories on reddit -- which I know is the TV-addict equivalent of scraping and smoking old bong residue -- the show determined that the Night King was originally a man, turned by the CotF. The show also established that CotF have the power to prevent someone from becoming either a wight or a white walker, if the CotF get to the victim in time (Benjen). It's either a show-fan theory or book-lore that the Night King was also a Stark, and thus (something something) perhaps the Starks in the crypt were buried in ways so that if they DO become the walking dead, they'll still have their minds like Benjen, not be mindless wights.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 25 Apr 2019, 09:50

It was fine. It was a place holder before the Big Bad Battle, but it was fine. The reunions were sappy but they were fine. Arya's sex scene was good narratively, but not actually sexy. I actually dug Brienne's knighting. Jamie is all like "I can make you a knight. Here, I'll prove it to you", and in the end Bert Cooper is right about the Japanese being right. A man is the room he is in. Or in this case a woman is a knight because she is accepted as a knight. Tormund rutting for her detracted from the moment.

My prediction is that so much of the cast is going to die, that predictions should focus on who lives.
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