A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 13 May 2019, 16:15

Pham Nuwen wrote:
Painboy wrote:
13 May 2019, 11:47
Ellie wrote:
13 May 2019, 10:26
My condolences to everyone who has been watching GoT since the beginning. I'm not being snarky. It sucks when a show you've put a lot of time into goes off the rails.
It really shouldn't be a surprise to most though. Ever since season 6 the show was substituting tight writing and character pieces for spectacle (I think I might have even mentioned it in this thread). And even for much of the show I felt the show runners did not entirely understand what made the books so engaging for many. There were certainly lurid things in the books but they were never the focus in the way the show made them. And when the book material ran out they clearly didn't have the ability, or maybe desire, to carry it through to a strong end.

I do wonder if GRRM is just holding on to the books to see what fan reaction is to the show ending, giving him a free test audience. Then he can change the ending to something that isn't going to piss everyone off.
Not without more sesasons. Which NOBODY wants. I feel like the last few seasons are the show equivalent to Budweiser. Watered down for mass appeal not taste.
Change the books' ending. Not the show.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 13 May 2019, 16:33

Another way to MAYBE make Dany's behavior more believable: if they'd done things like, ever since season 1, we've known that Dany really REALLY hates bells, because bells happen to ring every time something really awful and traumatic happens to her. Like, there were bells the first time Khal Drogo raped her (their wedding night in-show was FAR worse than in-book), AND bells rang in Qarth to celebrate when the wizard and the rich guy used her dragons to murder the council and establish themselves as rulers, AND a couple more traumatic events with bells ringing in the background -- and, worse yet, since all these traumatic bell-events happened BEFORE she and Tyrion met up, he did not know how bells set her off, and so....

But even THAT would have to be handled very carefully, if you want to pull it off.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 17:30

Or had her land next to Tyrion who said, "Hey look they rang the bells and are surrendering hooray!" and she's all "no it's a trap gotta go burninate the Red Keep and also those massed soldiers who are pretending to surrender, this is too easy and no one will fear me enough for me to keep power since they don't love me." There were ways to get there. To go from emo-but-still-Dany to Viserys in the space of literally 30 seconds is kinda nuts.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 13 May 2019, 17:39

lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 17:30
Or had her land next to Tyrion who said, "Hey look they rang the bells and are surrendering hooray!" and she's all "no it's a trap gotta go burninate the Red Keep and also those massed soldiers who are pretending to surrender, this is too easy and no one will fear me enough for me to keep power since they don't love me."
Yeah. But even then, it should've been something like "First she burns the Red Keep, and streets where everyone is a gold-helmeted soldier ... only the fires spread far beyond that." But no -- the first thing she went for IIRC was a streetful of obvious non-combatants ... and, yes, their status would be easily visible even from Dany's perch atop the dragon. Soldiers have helmets and swords and other metal things that reflect sunlight on such a bright morning -- those women and children in the marketplace sure as hell did not.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 13 May 2019, 17:49

One thing I did think was odd, you only see a close up of her on Drogo's back when the bells start ringing. From then on you never see another close up of her. Every shot is an away shot of the dragon. I'm wondering if they're going to have flashback shots of her the next episode doing or saying something that "justifies" or explains it. At this point I'm kind of expecting some stupid twist the show runners think is "clever."

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 17:51

But when Jon was all yo squicked auntie stop trying to fuck me and she said, "Well fear it is, then," she could've made a cold, calculated decision that she had to burn the Red Keep AND a good portion of King's Landing in order to get the fear she needed to maintain a grip on power given her lack of personal contacts in Westeros, having built all of her previous empire in Essos. That could make sense, but again you've got to get from here to there with something other than fifteen seconds of grimaced panting as the bells ring. She needed to tell that to Jon or Tyrion. To tell them to fuck off with their optimism, it was time for her to burn the continent into submission. Something like, "I saved Sansa and Winterfell and all of the North and that still wasn't enough and still she undermines me and opposes me. She needs to see what happens to those who oppose me, so I will not let these worms surrender - it's fire for all of them."

It's not like there aren't rational-but-horrible pathways from "Breaker of Chains" to "New Mad Queen Dresden Lady." But this episode just wasn't that way.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 18:05

Shit. You know what would've really worked? If some Northerners started chanting King in the North about Jon.

That would've earned the rage. It's what she's jealous of, anyway. It's really the one thing that would REALLY make a psychotic, you woke the dragon, burn it all to the ground response understandable.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 13 May 2019, 18:07

lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 18:05
Shit. You know what would've really worked? If some Northerners started chanting King in the North about Jon.

That would've earned the rage. It's what she's jealous of, anyway. It's really the one thing that would REALLY make a psychotic, you woke the dragon, burn it all to the ground response understandable.
Ooh, yeah, that WOULD have been a good strategy! (But again: she'd still need to burn the chanters first, NOT go after a streetful of obvious women and children.)
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 18:13

Jennifer wrote:
13 May 2019, 18:07
lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 18:05
Shit. You know what would've really worked? If some Northerners started chanting King in the North about Jon.

That would've earned the rage. It's what she's jealous of, anyway. It's really the one thing that would REALLY make a psychotic, you woke the dragon, burn it all to the ground response understandable.
Ooh, yeah, that WOULD have been a good strategy! (But again: she'd still need to burn the chanters first, NOT go after a streetful of obvious women and children.)
Maybe if she just heard it in the distance, and didn't know where it came from, and so she just started indiscriminately flaming people. Certainly could've worked better than this.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Shem » 13 May 2019, 19:23

JasonL wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:08
I didn't see it but that part seemed jarring after reading about it - after the bell rings and surrender is in place? That makes you a homicidal crazy person and that shouldn't come from nowhere.
It doesn't come from nowhere. For one thing, Sansa, one of the few good judges of character the show has left, has been like "hey guys, I don't trust this chick" forever now, and people blew her off. Plus, going bitchcakes and murdering people when things get stressful is pretty much the Targaryen family's jam. Her best friend just got murdered, and told her to avenge the death with fire. Her other pals are more or less constantly giving her terrible tactical advice, and are now scheming to cut her out of the line for the throne, even though their advice is a big part of why she's having trouble. And, her squicky compromise with her nepotistic boyfriend got shot down cold, which just drives home even more that if she wants the throne, she's going to have to take it. By fire and blood, like she's been saying the whole time.

All the beats are there; they just didn't spend hours upon hours grinding viewers into dust with it like they did in previous seasons. You can't even really say this is contrary to Martin's vision, since his vision is "everybody is awful and, if given half an excuse, will reenact the worst excesses of the Hundred Years' War on unsuspecting townspeople. Or, if they're unwilling to do that, they'll get killed by people who will." If anything, it's a return to form.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 19:31

Shem wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:23
JasonL wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:08
I didn't see it but that part seemed jarring after reading about it - after the bell rings and surrender is in place? That makes you a homicidal crazy person and that shouldn't come from nowhere.
It doesn't come from nowhere. For one thing, Sansa, one of the few good judges of character the show has left, has been like "hey guys, I don't trust this chick" forever now, and people blew her off. Plus, going bitchcakes and murdering people when things get stressful is pretty much the Targaryen family's jam. Her best friend just got murdered, and told her to avenge the death with fire. Her other pals are more or less constantly giving her terrible tactical advice, and are now scheming to cut her out of the line for the throne, even though their advice is a big part of why she's having trouble. And, her squicky compromise with her nepotistic boyfriend got shot down cold, which just drives home even more that if she wants the throne, she's going to have to take it. By fire and blood, like she's been saying the whole time.

All the beats are there; they just didn't spend hours upon hours grinding viewers into dust with it like they did in previous seasons. You can't even really say this is contrary to Martin's vision, since his vision is "everybody is awful and, if given half an excuse, will reenact the worst excesses of the Hundred Years' War on unsuspecting townspeople. Or, if they're unwilling to do that, they'll get killed by people who will." If anything, it's a return to form.
Yeah she's been nutso and building to something like this, but her previous nutso overreactions were all cold. This one is hot, and ... just so weirdly timed. Oh, I won? Awesome, no wait pant-pant-pant-pant TIME TO GO PSYCHO!!!! Monsters usually make sense, at least to themselves. There needed to be SOME reason for her to be merciless, rather than just a psychotic rage upon hearing of the surrender. Even James Holmes had this crazy theory that his economic value was tied to the spectacle of his mass murderiness.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 19:33

Mrs lunch pointed out that this started in Season 1 when she had the chance to save Viserys and instead let Drogo give him the Golden Crown. It's not like she hasn't killed some people bein' a stone cold bitch in pretty much every season.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 13 May 2019, 19:42

lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:33
Mrs lunch pointed out that this started in Season 1 when she had the chance to save Viserys and instead let Drogo give him the Golden Crown. It's not like she hasn't killed some people bein' a stone cold bitch in pretty much every season.
Yeah, but every other time, there was some type of reason or justification: Viserys had just threatened to kill her AND violated a major Dothraki taboo in the process. Even when she'd killed innocent people, there was a reason -- like, "the masters" crucified slave children in Meereen, thus she decided to crucify "the masters" in turn (though without checking to determine those particular masters were in fact guilty). The Tullys were defeated soldiers who were offered the chance to keep their lands and titles IF they bowed, and Dany's killing them for refusing is definitely a war crime by modern standards, but by the standards of her time, arguably, she was actually better than most in that regard.

Compare that to last night -- "My advisers are screwing me, so I'll torch ... a bunch of innocent peasants?" No. That's not how her character played out.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 13 May 2019, 19:54

Concur.

Also HBO missed a good opportunity for the closing credits soundtrack. It's from an album called "In League with Dragons" even.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Shem » 13 May 2019, 20:00

lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:31
Shem wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:23
JasonL wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:08
I didn't see it but that part seemed jarring after reading about it - after the bell rings and surrender is in place? That makes you a homicidal crazy person and that shouldn't come from nowhere.
It doesn't come from nowhere. For one thing, Sansa, one of the few good judges of character the show has left, has been like "hey guys, I don't trust this chick" forever now, and people blew her off. Plus, going bitchcakes and murdering people when things get stressful is pretty much the Targaryen family's jam. Her best friend just got murdered, and told her to avenge the death with fire. Her other pals are more or less constantly giving her terrible tactical advice, and are now scheming to cut her out of the line for the throne, even though their advice is a big part of why she's having trouble. And, her squicky compromise with her nepotistic boyfriend got shot down cold, which just drives home even more that if she wants the throne, she's going to have to take it. By fire and blood, like she's been saying the whole time.

All the beats are there; they just didn't spend hours upon hours grinding viewers into dust with it like they did in previous seasons. You can't even really say this is contrary to Martin's vision, since his vision is "everybody is awful and, if given half an excuse, will reenact the worst excesses of the Hundred Years' War on unsuspecting townspeople. Or, if they're unwilling to do that, they'll get killed by people who will." If anything, it's a return to form.
Yeah she's been nutso and building to something like this, but her previous nutso overreactions were all cold. This one is hot, and ... just so weirdly timed. Oh, I won? Awesome, no wait pant-pant-pant-pant TIME TO GO PSYCHO!!!! Monsters usually make sense, at least to themselves. There needed to be SOME reason for her to be merciless, rather than just a psychotic rage upon hearing of the surrender. Even James Holmes had this crazy theory that his economic value was tied to the spectacle of his mass murderiness.
But she didn't win. Tyrion did. She was all set up to beat Cersei and win the battle, and here comes Tyrion, whose loyalty she's already questioning, swindling her out of her glorious Targaryen victory by convincing them to surrender. Next it's "well Dany, you didn't really win, they surrendered. And besides, the Starks and everyone were right there with you for the battle against the White Walkers, and Jon's sister was the one who won the battle, so was it really your victory? We need to make Jon king. He has better local connections, besides, you really must be getting back to the Sea of Grass, right? Right." That's why, even though she was pissed, I don't think it was that hot of a reaction. I think it was her deciding "I'm going to leave no question as to who is in charge here, and the easiest way to do it is to burn everyone who might have cause to question that.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 13 May 2019, 20:29

Shem wrote:
13 May 2019, 20:00

But she didn't win. Tyrion did. She was all set up to beat Cersei and win the battle, and here comes Tyrion, whose loyalty she's already questioning, swindling her out of her glorious Targaryen victory by convincing them to surrender.
After she burned the entire Iron Fleet, destroyed the city walls and torched a bunch of Cersei's soldiers.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 13 May 2019, 20:54

lunchstealer wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:54
Concur.

Also HBO missed a good opportunity for the closing credits soundtrack. It's from an album called "In League with Dragons" even.

Actually if they had played this at the end I would've forgiven every stupid thing they've done in the entire series.


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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Painboy » 13 May 2019, 23:03

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/ ... that_fits/

It's Hell Bells by AC/DC set to the scene when she starts torching everything. Like the op said it's surprising how well it fits together.

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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Kolohe » 13 May 2019, 23:35

Jennifer wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:03
Also: bad as Dany's sudden character devolution was, Grey Worm's is perhaps even worse. He attacked soldiers who had already surrendered and thrown down their weapons??! I don't buy it -- I get his rage over Missandei, and had Grey Worm gone to town on one of the people who were up on the wall with Cersei when Missandei was beheaded that might be believable -- but going after ordinary soldiers who had already surrendered? He himself was a former slave-soldier who surely knows "Individual soldiers are not responsible for whatever bullshit their army leaders are trying to pull--especially not after those soldiers ALREADY SURRENDERED."
After seeing the AC/DC mashup that Painboy just posted, I totally see Grey Worm's action as a response to a lifetime of shit that's happened to him.

(I actually haven't seen an episode this season, though. So I'm not sure what the emotional beats were immediately before the bell tolling)
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 14 May 2019, 01:51

Kolohe wrote:
13 May 2019, 23:35
Jennifer wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:03
Also: bad as Dany's sudden character devolution was, Grey Worm's is perhaps even worse. He attacked soldiers who had already surrendered and thrown down their weapons??! I don't buy it -- I get his rage over Missandei, and had Grey Worm gone to town on one of the people who were up on the wall with Cersei when Missandei was beheaded that might be believable -- but going after ordinary soldiers who had already surrendered? He himself was a former slave-soldier who surely knows "Individual soldiers are not responsible for whatever bullshit their army leaders are trying to pull--especially not after those soldiers ALREADY SURRENDERED."
After seeing the AC/DC mashup that Painboy just posted, I totally see Grey Worm's action as a response to a lifetime of shit that's happened to him.
I still don't buy that he would have snapped by going after innocent people, as opposed to the sort of people who doled out all that shit to him. The show did nothing to establish Grey Worm as the type who'd do that, if sufficiently provoked.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Mo » 14 May 2019, 18:12

The same idiots that said the Empire are the good guys in Star Wars now think Daenerys is a genocidal monster. Lol
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by lunchstealer » 14 May 2019, 19:28

Mo wrote:
14 May 2019, 18:12
The same idiots that said the Empire are the good guys in Star Wars now think Daenerys is a genocidal monster. Lol
That that a Pederalist hot take?
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Mo » 15 May 2019, 05:17

The case for the Empire was originally in the Weekly Standard. I know, you're shocked that that publication would support a militarily aggressive power with little concern for collateral damage.
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Warren » 16 May 2019, 08:51

Danny, Arya, People that weren't in Kings Landing. Anybody else survive?
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Re: A Game of ... THEY KILLED WHO?!?!? (hbo spoilers)

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 14:33

I think Jon, Davos and Tyrion are still alive -- though I don't expect Tyrion will make it to the end of the series. Dany will likely kill him for "treason," for letting Jaime escape. Even though this was pretty much the only plan Tyrion ever made as Dany's hand that actually worked out as he intended -- let Jaime go in hope of convincing the city to surrender and ring the bells before Dany has to torch the place, the city DID surrender and ring the bells ... aaaaaaand Dany didn't care.
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