This is the thread for people who died, died.

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Kwix
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Kwix » 29 Jun 2018, 18:29

I remember meeting him on two different occasions (both convention signing events).
The first was a long wait and he was his apparently usual curmudgeonly self. Though it was not directed at me, I was unfamiliar with his personality and was taken aback. The other guy then laughed and I figured out the game.

The other was the year he and Bradbury were booked signing side by side at the same time. The line for Bradbury (a first year attendance for him) was at least 500 people long whereas Ellison had maybe 20 people in his line. He showed up, signed those 20 and then vocally said, "Fuck it, I'm leaving." and did.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Jul 2018, 21:19

Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1994 and 1995 sarin attacks.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Andrew » 06 Jul 2018, 21:26

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Jul 2018, 22:00

Andrew wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
Oh, yeah. Something like 80% of Japanese folks support it, versus about 60% here. I'm not sure what I think about their practices, but I do give them that they don't execute very many people.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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Jadagul
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Jadagul » 06 Jul 2018, 22:30

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 22:00
Andrew wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
Oh, yeah. Something like 80% of Japanese folks support it, versus about 60% here. I'm not sure what I think about their practices, but I do give them that they don't execute very many people.
In a lot of ways it's easier to support the death penalty when it's rarer.

I think a lot more people would support "executing Osama bin Laden" than support "the death penalty."

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Warren
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Warren » 07 Jul 2018, 14:40

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 22:00
Andrew wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
Oh, yeah. Something like 80% of Japanese folks support it, versus about 60% here. I'm not sure what I think about their practices, but I do give them that they don't execute very many people.
If your hangman knows his stuff and allots the right drop to snap the neck, hanging is about as humane an execution as any other.
The value of peer review lies substantially in the nature of one's peers. - that Ridgely guy

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Hugh Akston
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Hugh Akston » 07 Jul 2018, 19:09

Warren wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 14:40
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 22:00
Andrew wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
Oh, yeah. Something like 80% of Japanese folks support it, versus about 60% here. I'm not sure what I think about their practices, but I do give them that they don't execute very many people.
If your hangman knows his stuff and allots the right drop to snap the neck, hanging is about as humane an execution as any other.
All methods of execution are equally humane. Once you decide to murder someone, the amount of suffering they experience beforehand really doesn't matter.
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Ellie
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Ellie » 07 Jul 2018, 19:13

I'd have to strongly disagree with that. I think the death penalty is inhumane no matter what, but it is still far worse to torture someone to death over a week than to end their life in a moment. And I think anyone given the choice between the two would choose the latter, even though they know they'll end up dead either way.
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Warren
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Warren » 07 Jul 2018, 19:19

Ellie wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 19:13
I'd have to strongly disagree with that. I think the death penalty is inhumane no matter what, but it is still far worse to torture someone to death over a week than to end their life in a moment. And I think anyone given the choice between the two would choose the latter, even though they know they'll end up dead either way.
Yeah. I really don't know what to say to that jadahugh.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Hugh Akston » 07 Jul 2018, 19:29

I'm sure the amount of suffering does matter to the victim, at least in the short term. But I can't imagine people who are so lacking in humanity that they approve of murder would care about the amount of suffering being inflicted, much less the preferences of the person being killed.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 Jul 2018, 19:57

Warren wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 14:40
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 22:00
Andrew wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jul 2018, 21:19
Shoko Asahara and some followers, hanged-by-the-neck-until-dead for their involvement in the 1995 nerve agent attack in the Tokyo subway.

This is very strange to me; I was in college when that happened.
I was mostly surprised that Japan has executions, and that they're by hanging.
Oh, yeah. Something like 80% of Japanese folks support it, versus about 60% here. I'm not sure what I think about their practices, but I do give them that they don't execute very many people.
If your hangman knows his stuff and allots the right drop to snap the neck, hanging is about as humane an execution as any other.
Oh, definitely. More so than the gas chamber, in particular.

I was referring not to Japan's criminal justice system, which send perhaps as dubious as our own. Still, killing only a few people, and most often airtight cases for multiple murders, seems like it might avoid some of the US's worst death penalty problems.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Warren
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Warren » 07 Jul 2018, 20:14

Hugh Akston wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 19:29
I'm sure the amount of suffering does matter to the victim, at least in the short term. But I can't imagine people who are so lacking in humanity that they approve of murder would care about the amount of suffering being inflicted, much less the preferences of the person being killed.
I think you grossly underestimate the volatility of social norms. It's the images that get to people. You want a swell of anti-death penalty outpouring? Broadcast a live electric chair or gas chamber execution.
A proper hanging with a hood and snapped neck, would only boost support for the death penalty.

People may actually want murders, child molesters, drug kingpins, people that talk at the theater, to suffer, but what they don't want is to have to actually confront it themselves.
The value of peer review lies substantially in the nature of one's peers. - that Ridgely guy

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Painboy
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Painboy » 07 Jul 2018, 21:32

Warren wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 20:14
Hugh Akston wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 19:29
I'm sure the amount of suffering does matter to the victim, at least in the short term. But I can't imagine people who are so lacking in humanity that they approve of murder would care about the amount of suffering being inflicted, much less the preferences of the person being killed.
I think you grossly underestimate the volatility of social norms. It's the images that get to people. You want a swell of anti-death penalty outpouring? Broadcast a live electric chair or gas chamber execution.
A proper hanging with a hood and snapped neck, would only boost support for the death penalty.

People may actually want murders, child molesters, drug kingpins, people that talk at the theater, to suffer, but what they don't want is to have to actually confront it themselves.
I used to think this as well but historically public execution was a common thing and often very gruesome. That didn't seem to stop the desire for it. The Guillotine was "standing room only" throughout most of the French Revolution. And it's not like everyone in attendance thought highly of the justice system that produced those horrific numbers.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Hugh Akston » 07 Jul 2018, 21:37

Warren wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 20:14
Hugh Akston wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 19:29
I'm sure the amount of suffering does matter to the victim, at least in the short term. But I can't imagine people who are so lacking in humanity that they approve of murder would care about the amount of suffering being inflicted, much less the preferences of the person being killed.
I think you grossly underestimate the volatility of social norms. It's the images that get to people. You want a swell of anti-death penalty outpouring? Broadcast a live electric chair or gas chamber execution.
A proper hanging with a hood and snapped neck, would only boost support for the death penalty.

People may actually want murders, child molesters, drug kingpins, people that talk at the theater, to suffer, but what they don't want is to have to actually confront it themselves.
I agree that they don't want to be confronted with it, which is why they use euphemisms like execution or capital punishment. I'm skeptical that the optics are the lynchpin holding up that and other abominable institutions. I fear that if they were broadcast live you would see a society with more naked brutality and less of the genteel civilized variety.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Jul 2018, 23:12

Hugh Akston wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 21:37
I agree that they don't want to be confronted with it, which is why they use euphemisms like execution or capital punishment. I'm skeptical that the optics are the lynchpin holding up that and other abominable institutions. I fear that if they were broadcast live you would see a society with more naked brutality and less of the genteel civilized variety.
Well, no, "execution" isn't a euphemism even if you or I think giving the state the power to end someone's life is wrong, as indeed I do. But context matters, which is why we have so many different terms to describe the taking of another person's life to provide that context.

As for the duration and intensity of pain the condemned suffers, it matters both to the condemned, himself, and to the society that has decided one way or another that the death penalty is appropriate in some circumstances. By all means, let's make executions public. Perhaps that would lead to more barbaric executions or maybe it would lead to the abolition of capital punishment sooner rather than later. We don't know. It's the old "we're neither angels nor devils" point, and if you really think executing someone by hanging, shooting, electrocution or gas are as barbaric as older forms of execution, well, I venture you haven't done your homework. Do the states that have capital punishment actually execute prisoners in as humane a manner as possible? Of course not. But they're not being drawn and quartered, either.

Anyway, and more in line with your pov, a bit of the late, great George Carlin on the topic:


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Tuco
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Tuco » 08 Jul 2018, 09:35

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 23:12
Hugh Akston wrote:
07 Jul 2018, 21:37
I agree that they don't want to be confronted with it, which is why they use euphemisms like execution or capital punishment. I'm skeptical that the optics are the lynchpin holding up that and other abominable institutions. I fear that if they were broadcast live you would see a society with more naked brutality and less of the genteel civilized variety.
Well, no, "execution" isn't a euphemism even if you or I think giving the state the power to end someone's life is wrong, as indeed I do. But context matters, which is why we have so many different terms to describe the taking of another person's life to provide that context.

As for the duration and intensity of pain the condemned suffers, it matters both to the condemned, himself, and to the society that has decided one way or another that the death penalty is appropriate in some circumstances. By all means, let's make executions public. Perhaps that would lead to more barbaric executions or maybe it would lead to the abolition of capital punishment sooner rather than later. We don't know. It's the old "we're neither angels nor devils" point, and if you really think executing someone by hanging, shooting, electrocution or gas are as barbaric as older forms of execution, well, I venture you haven't done your homework. Do the states that have capital punishment actually execute prisoners in as humane a manner as possible? Of course not. But they're not being drawn and quartered, either.

Anyway, and more in line with your pov, a bit of the late, great George Carlin on the topic:

Damn, I miss Carlin.

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JasonL
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This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by JasonL » 08 Jul 2018, 09:47

This was gruesome in details but interesting as an overview of how historically people have viewed public executions. One of the major themes is the evolution from Roman style audience participation spectacles (executions were performed at halftime of gladiatorial events and showmen executioners would get the crowd involved by taking suggestions like “hot irons and beasts eating feet!!”), to religious redemption plays in which it was important again for the audience to “help” the party truly repent though maximum suffering in dignity begging Christ for mercy, to purely political deterrence efforts which cane to be at odds with religious plays because you didn’t want audience to “root” for the victim.

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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by thoreau » 08 Jul 2018, 12:02

In some ways, the least painful, most immediate forms of death would provide more of a spectacle (blood and/or visible disfigurement and/or banging noises) than a slow lethal death by lethal injection. I'm not sure which would offend the public more, and which would draw more support for or opposition to capital punishment.
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Warren
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Warren » 08 Jul 2018, 19:57

Since nobody else mentioned him, and I feel like someone should: Steve Ditko.
The value of peer review lies substantially in the nature of one's peers. - that Ridgely guy

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nicole
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by nicole » 07 Aug 2018, 16:03

Stan Mikita
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nicole
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by nicole » 16 Aug 2018, 10:01

Aretha Franklin
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Warren
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Warren » 16 Aug 2018, 14:26

nicole wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 10:01
Aretha Franklin
My musician friend thought she was overrated but I respected her.
The value of peer review lies substantially in the nature of one's peers. - that Ridgely guy

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Mo
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Mo » 17 Aug 2018, 16:17

Aretha Franklin was great, but she’s no Linda Ronstadt or Kelly Clarkson.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/ ... -original/
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Number 6
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by Number 6 » 17 Aug 2018, 17:18

Mo wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 16:17
Aretha Franklin was great, but she’s no Linda Ronstadt or Kelly Clarkson.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/ ... -original/
That was a pretty solid article.
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JD
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Re: This is the thread for people who died, died.

Post by JD » 24 Aug 2018, 17:01

Deathstyles of the Rich and Famous: Robin Leach passes away at 76. I would have guessed he was older, actually.
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