Iran (so far away)

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Aresen
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 26 Jul 2015, 21:34

Eric the .5b wrote:
Aresen wrote:
Kolohe wrote:The UK bookies should have a line on the first McD's opening in Tehran, Havana, and Pyongyang.
My money is on Havana.


(Because why not, and I can't think of any songs for the other two capitals.)
How about:

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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Eric the .5b » 27 Jul 2015, 00:30

That's not a song, that's a lingering horror of the Vietnam war.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 08 Aug 2015, 10:10

Tokyo, December 8, 1941* (AP) Prime Minister Hideki Tojo announced this morning that the Japanese Imperial Navy had carried out a pre-emptive strike against the US Navy base in Pearl Harbor.

"This will remove the threat of a carrier-armed United States to the Great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere." The Prime Minister said. "The United States is well known for invading its neighbors and subverting the governments of other countries."

The Prime Minister went on "We are sure that this necessary attack will bring the US to its senses and cause the people to remove the Roosevelt regime that has caused the American people so much hardship.

"This will bring an end to American attempts to build carriers and threaten world peace."
*Remember the International Date Line
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Warren » 08 Aug 2015, 12:39

Aresen wrote:
Tokyo, December 8, 1941* (AP) Prime Minister Hideki Tojo announced this morning that the Japanese Imperial Navy had carried out a pre-emptive strike against the US Navy base in Pearl Harbor.

"This will remove the threat of a carrier-armed United States to the Great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere." The Prime Minister said. "The United States is well known for invading its neighbors and subverting the governments of other countries."

The Prime Minister went on "We are sure that this necessary attack will bring the US to its senses and cause the people to remove the Roosevelt regime that has caused the American people so much hardship.

"This will bring an end to American attempts to build carriers and threaten world peace."
*Remember the International Date Line
Unfortunately for Japan, there were no carriers at Pearl Harbor on the day of the attack. They were the prime targets of the attack and they didn't sink a one. But I seriously doubt that the American people would have reacted differently had the attack been successful.

That idea, that if we just stomp on these people hard enough, that'll learn em. It's so fucking misguided, people's reaction to getting stomped on is always "We're going to make you regret stomping on us". It's just a huge persistent fucking blind spot.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Highway » 08 Aug 2015, 13:04

Warren wrote:That idea, that if we just stomp on these people hard enough, that'll learn em. It's so fucking misguided, people's reaction to getting stomped on is always "We're going to make you regret stomping on us". It's just a huge persistent fucking blind spot.
Just another example of everyone thinking they're different from every other person. "Well, if I got knocked down, I'd get up again!" "Why wouldn't you expect they feel the same way?" "uhhhh... Cause I'm so awesome and they're not?"
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Aug 2015, 19:11

Well, part of that is that people can stomped into submission. But you have to go way the Hell further than the US government has been willing to go since, oh, WW2.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Aug 2015, 19:33

So I was in a waiting room to get the low-rent hamster car back during the James Holmes Sentencing Media Event yesterday evening, and an ad came on about how awesome the Iran nuclear deal was for Israel. It's makng Israel safer by something something nuclear free Iran something inspectors. Israel comes out a winner. Iran Deal: Good for Israel... and America.

Seriously, it was all about Israel until the very end tagline, when they added America.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 08 Aug 2015, 20:54

Eric the .5b wrote:Well, part of that is that people can stomped into submission. But you have to go way the Hell further than the US government has been willing to go since, oh, WW2.
True, but only for a generation or so. After that they start plotting to get rid of you if you are still occupying their country. The only way around that is genocide or assimilation.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Highway » 08 Aug 2015, 21:30

Aresen wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:Well, part of that is that people can stomped into submission. But you have to go way the Hell further than the US government has been willing to go since, oh, WW2.
True, but only for a generation or so. After that they start plotting to get rid of you if you are still occupying their country. The only way around that is genocide or assimilation.
Yeah, I'm with Aresen here. You can't *keep* people stomped into submission. And I don't think you can first-strike someone into submission at all. It only happens after they're exhausted (like WW2, as we were discussing).
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Number 6 » 08 Aug 2015, 22:54

lunchstealer wrote:So I was in a waiting room to get the low-rent hamster car back during the James Holmes Sentencing Media Event yesterday evening, and an ad came on about how awesome the Iran nuclear deal was for Israel. It's makng Israel safer by something something nuclear free Iran something inspectors. Israel comes out a winner. Iran Deal: Good for Israel... and America.

Seriously, it was all about Israel until the very end tagline, when they added America.
At this point, my gut reaction is, "You know what? FUCK Israel."
ETA: I'm in favor of the deal. But I'm sick an tired of Israel being the driving factor in our Middle East policy.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 08 Aug 2015, 23:46

Number 6 wrote:
lunchstealer wrote:So I was in a waiting room to get the low-rent hamster car back during the James Holmes Sentencing Media Event yesterday evening, and an ad came on about how awesome the Iran nuclear deal was for Israel. It's makng Israel safer by something something nuclear free Iran something inspectors. Israel comes out a winner. Iran Deal: Good for Israel... and America.

Seriously, it was all about Israel until the very end tagline, when they added America.
At this point, my gut reaction is, "You know what? FUCK Israel."
ETA: I'm in favor of the deal. But I'm sick an tired of Israel being the driving factor in our Middle East policy.
As I understand it, there is a faction of the Evangelical Christian Right that supports Isreal because the re-establishment of the state of Isreal is one of the pre-conditions for Armaggedon and the End of Times.

Which, incidentally, includes the annihilation of the Jews.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Warren » 09 Aug 2015, 00:21

I don't see that our cozy relations with Israel have done our national security any good. Mind you I wouldn't want Israel to think of us as their enemy. But if we could ween them off the tit, I'd rest some easier.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2015, 01:39

Aresen wrote:
Number 6 wrote:
lunchstealer wrote:So I was in a waiting room to get the low-rent hamster car back during the James Holmes Sentencing Media Event yesterday evening, and an ad came on about how awesome the Iran nuclear deal was for Israel. It's makng Israel safer by something something nuclear free Iran something inspectors. Israel comes out a winner. Iran Deal: Good for Israel... and America.

Seriously, it was all about Israel until the very end tagline, when they added America.
At this point, my gut reaction is, "You know what? FUCK Israel."
ETA: I'm in favor of the deal. But I'm sick an tired of Israel being the driving factor in our Middle East policy.
As I understand it, there is a faction of the Evangelical Christian Right that supports Isreal because the re-establishment of the state of Isreal is one of the pre-conditions for Armaggedon and the End of Times.

Which, incidentally, includes the annihilation of the Jews.
That explains the depth of the support in certain quarters, but people who are that into Revelation are probably as small of a percentage of the population as Jews are. The sympathy for Israel is much wider and deeper than that; hence Congress feels comfortable giving Likud politicians more bipartisan standing ovations than they would ever give to any US President. I'm pretty sure that if one of the Navy Seals who killed Bin Laden addressed Congress and talked solely about Mom and Apple Pie, he would get fewer bipartisan ovations than an Israeli PM badmouthing US policy.

American Jews are too few and too liberal to push the two parties to the right of Likud, and the sorts of fundies who are into setting things up for an apocalypse are too conservative to account for the bipartisan nature of our love affair with Israel. Both groups do their part, but they wouldn't be this successful unless the wider US public had its own reasons for accepting these policies.

Ultimately, I think the wider US public sees Israel as (1) an underdog and (2) the most westernized country in the region. Both of these factors make the typical American sympathetic and ready to sign off on whatever people with a deeper passion for the issue want. Then you factor in the American Jews who have understandable sympathies for Israel (and enough remove from the situation to not see it as, say, a Haaretz editorialist might) and the Biblical literalists who consider 3,000 year-old property deeds issued on Mt. Sinai more relevant than Palestinians saying "That was my home until settlers drive us out a few years ago" and there you go.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 09 Aug 2015, 12:01

thoreau wrote:
Aresen wrote:
Number 6 wrote:
lunchstealer wrote:So I was in a waiting room to get the low-rent hamster car back during the James Holmes Sentencing Media Event yesterday evening, and an ad came on about how awesome the Iran nuclear deal was for Israel. It's makng Israel safer by something something nuclear free Iran something inspectors. Israel comes out a winner. Iran Deal: Good for Israel... and America.

Seriously, it was all about Israel until the very end tagline, when they added America.
At this point, my gut reaction is, "You know what? FUCK Israel."
ETA: I'm in favor of the deal. But I'm sick an tired of Israel being the driving factor in our Middle East policy.
As I understand it, there is a faction of the Evangelical Christian Right that supports Isreal because the re-establishment of the state of Isreal is one of the pre-conditions for Armaggedon and the End of Times.

Which, incidentally, includes the annihilation of the Jews.
That explains the depth of the support in certain quarters, but people who are that into Revelation are probably as small of a percentage of the population as Jews are. The sympathy for Israel is much wider and deeper than that; hence Congress feels comfortable giving Likud politicians more bipartisan standing ovations than they would ever give to any US President. I'm pretty sure that if one of the Navy Seals who killed Bin Laden addressed Congress and talked solely about Mom and Apple Pie, he would get fewer bipartisan ovations than an Israeli PM badmouthing US policy.

American Jews are too few and too liberal to push the two parties to the right of Likud, and the sorts of fundies who are into setting things up for an apocalypse are too conservative to account for the bipartisan nature of our love affair with Israel. Both groups do their part, but they wouldn't be this successful unless the wider US public had its own reasons for accepting these policies.

Ultimately, I think the wider US public sees Israel as (1) an underdog and (2) the most westernized country in the region. Both of these factors make the typical American sympathetic and ready to sign off on whatever people with a deeper passion for the issue want. Then you factor in the American Jews who have understandable sympathies for Israel (and enough remove from the situation to not see it as, say, a Haaretz editorialist might) and the Biblical literalists who consider 3,000 year-old property deeds issued on Mt. Sinai more relevant than Palestinians saying "That was my home until settlers drive us out a few years ago" and there you go.

True. I think Holocaust-inspired guilt feelings play a large role as well.

I just found it amusing when I discovered that there was support for Israel based on bringing about the apocalypse.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Jennifer » 09 Aug 2015, 12:14

When I was a kid and young teen, even though I went to a fairly progressive UMC church (as opposed to a fundamentalist congregation), I remember hearing lots of "end times" prophecies. (When I'd attend things like Girl Scout troop slumber parties, during the time we'd sit in the dark telling scary ghost stories, we'd also share scary signs of the End Times and stories about demons and backwards masking hiding evil messages in rock songs. That's where I first "learned" the dubious facts that the rock band KISS stands for "Kings/Knights In Satan's service," and "AC/DC" means "After Christ, Devil Conquers.")

The founding of Israel loomed large in such stories due to a prophecy that all the world's Jews would return to the holy land before the second coming. And when Chernobyl melted down everyone went absolutely bananas because that was the "star Wormwood" mentioned in the Revelation.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2015, 12:20

True. Between Holocaust guilt and a perception of Israel as vulnerable, plus the very real fact that the other governments in the region are mostly pretty unsavory, Americans are primed to sign off on pretty much anything that Israel does in the name of security. So you mix in some religious fanatics (Jewish and Gentile alike) who consider the Mt. Sinai property deed the only relevant factor, a wider swath of Jews with understandable sympathy for their kindred in Israel, and a military and foreign policy elite that is always seeking hawkish friends, and the stage is set for America's policy elites to get in bed with the farthest of the Israeli far right while none but the fringiest of the American fringe complain.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Sep 2015, 14:53

The Iran Deal has its own Twitter account.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 09 Sep 2015, 19:23

Hugh Akston wrote:The Iran Deal has its own Twitter account.
I suppose the opponents have their own account as well #bombbombiran
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 11 Dec 2015, 14:02

I know the mouthbreathers who cheer for a 'counter-jihad' against all Muslims have endless examples of Muslims who preach hostility towards non-Muslims, but this is why I think the Mullahs, Ayatollahs and despots are ultimately doomed:

How a gay Iranian poet fleeing persecution ‘fell in love’ with Israel

It is not the particular story that interests me. It is the fact that information is leaking into the theocratic states and causing countless individuals to question the dictates of their rulers. It is that inexorable defection from the fanatics that will mean the end of the theocracies.

It is also the reason that the rest of the world should not do things which force the would-be defectors back onto the side of the tyrants.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Painboy » 12 Dec 2015, 17:05

Aresen wrote:I know the mouthbreathers who cheer for a 'counter-jihad' against all Muslims have endless examples of Muslims who preach hostility towards non-Muslims, but this is why I think the Mullahs, Ayatollahs and despots are ultimately doomed:

How a gay Iranian poet fleeing persecution ‘fell in love’ with Israel

It is not the particular story that interests me. It is the fact that information is leaking into the theocratic states and causing countless individuals to question the dictates of their rulers. It is that inexorable defection from the fanatics that will mean the end of the theocracies.

It is also the reason that the rest of the world should not do things which force the would-be defectors back onto the side of the tyrants.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Dangerman » 13 Dec 2015, 14:08



Fuck Your Yankee Blue Jeans.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Kolohe » 13 Jan 2016, 06:49

this generation's iran hostage crisis lasts less than 24 hrs? Man, millenials really *don't* stick with anything.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Mo » 13 Jan 2016, 09:37

Interestingly, there is almost no coverage on this in comparison to the SOTU. Conservative media doesn't want to give Obama credit and liberals don't want anyone to know that Iran had captured US sailors in the first place.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Kolohe » 13 Jan 2016, 09:58

Cable news was pretty wall to wall with it from the time the story broke (sometime around 3 or 4 eastern) until the speech itself. They seem to have been released late morning local time, which was when everyone was getting up on the us east coast, which made the story then moot.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 13 Jan 2016, 10:57

Kolohe wrote:this generation's iran hostage crisis lasts less than 24 hrs? Man, millenials really *don't* stick with anything.
You mean they are Mullahs of the moment?
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