Iran (so far away)

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Shem
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Shem » 15 Mar 2015, 16:52

Somebody hand this guy a gun and tell him "get to the front lines, fucko."
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Jennifer
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Jennifer » 15 Mar 2015, 17:07

Before clicking on the link, I thought it would be a story abut that bizarre "Hey, Iran, don't bother signing any agreements with the US 'cuz we'll totally renege on them once our party regains power" letter the GOP Senators sent to Iran. Seriously: have all Hawko-Americans lost their fucking minds regarding Iran? I don't even recall the Iraq War 2 hawks being this nuts. Dishonest, yes, but not nuts.

Then again, the Iraq War hawks didn't experience the frustration of several years' worth of thwarted desire for war, as the Iran Hawks have suffered. And the Iraq hawks didn't hate the then-current president, either.

As for the war-happy asshole who wrote this crap in the Post, sending him to the front lines would be a start, but wouldn't go far enough; he also needs to have his home and all worldly possessions bombed into smithereens, the way Iranians will if his fantasies come true.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Jennifer » 15 Mar 2015, 17:52

On the other hand -- and I don't know if this is "legitimate hope" or merely "wishful thinking" -- it could be that the Hawks' recent behavior has tainted the "war with Iran" well badly enough to ensure we'll avoid it for at least another five years or so.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 15 Mar 2015, 18:22

I still can't figure out why anyone cares if Iran gets a nuke. Are hawks really afraid that Khamenei is gonna ride the bomb Slim Pickens-style as it falls on Jerusalem?
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Warren » 15 Mar 2015, 18:24

Hugh Akston wrote:I still can't figure out why anyone cares if Iran gets a nuke. Are hawks really afraid that Khamenei is gonna ride the bomb Slim Pickens-style as it falls on Jerusalem?
near as i can tell,yes.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by lunchstealer » 15 Mar 2015, 18:25

Mostly, they're afraid that if they get a nuke, we can't just invade all willy-nilly whenever we want.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 15 Mar 2015, 18:41

Ideology is the raison d’etre of Iran’s regime, legitimating its rule and inspiring its leaders and their supporters. In this sense, it is akin to communist, fascist and Nazi regimes that set out to transform the world. Iran aims to carry its Islamic revolution across the Middle East and beyond. A nuclear arsenal, even if it is only brandished, would vastly enhance Iran’s power to achieve that goal.

Such visionary regimes do not trade power for a mess of foreign goods. Materialism is not their priority: They often sacrifice prosperity to adhere to ideology.
Ah, well those Other guys are irrational frothing-at-the-mouth ideologues who can't possibly be reasoned with. I guess war really is our only recourse.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Jennifer » 15 Mar 2015, 19:11

That quote struck me as odd, too. Strictly speaking, isn't ideology America's raison d'etre, too? Our country isn't based on membership in some ethnic group; it's an e pluribus unum which, at least in theory, is supposed to be based on various ideals or ideas about the relationship of government to its citizens.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Eric the .5b » 15 Mar 2015, 19:18

It's a scam, folks.

We've been hearing this style of saber-rattling about Iran since the Axis of Evil speech. Every opportunity the hawks had to actually go for military action against Iran, they punted it down the road. None of them want to go to war against Iran, they just want to keep the faithful motivated to support them and make the Democrats look week.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 15 Mar 2015, 19:30

Jennifer wrote:That quote struck me as odd, too. Strictly speaking, isn't ideology America's raison d'etre, too? Our country isn't based on membership in some ethnic group; it's an e pluribus unum which, at least in theory, is supposed to be based on various ideals or ideas about the relationship of government to its citizens.
That's totally different. When you do it it's called principle. When the other guy does it, it's ideology.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 15 Mar 2015, 19:48

Eric the .5b wrote:It's a scam, folks.

We've been hearing this style of saber-rattling about Iran since the Axis of Evil speech. Every opportunity the hawks had to actually go for military action against Iran, they punted it down the road. None of them want to go to war against Iran, they just want to keep the faithful motivated to support them and make the Democrats look week.
I think there is definitely a desire to 'whip up the troops', but also I think they really do want war. What has forestalled it (at differing times) has been Gulf War II, which tied up most of the resources needed and the respective administrations of Team Blue Presidents Clinton & Obama.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 15 Mar 2015, 20:09

The Iranian regime wants what Iranian leaders have always wanted: oil money, control over the people, and useful relationships with neighbors so they can guard against the lesser non-Persian peoples on their borders. Replace the theocrats with secular Persian nationalists and the foreign policy will look remarkably similar.
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Aresen
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Aresen » 15 Mar 2015, 20:21

thoreau wrote:The Iranian regime wants what Iranian leaders have always wanted: oil money, control over the people, and useful relationships with neighbors so they can guard against the lesser non-Persian peoples on their borders. Replace the theocrats with secular Persian nationalists and the foreign policy will look remarkably similar.
Including the "Hate on Israel" part.

Last I heard, our 'friends' the Saudis weren't inviting Bibi for dinner.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 15 Mar 2015, 20:52

Aresen wrote:
thoreau wrote:The Iranian regime wants what Iranian leaders have always wanted: oil money, control over the people, and useful relationships with neighbors so they can guard against the lesser non-Persian peoples on their borders. Replace the theocrats with secular Persian nationalists and the foreign policy will look remarkably similar.
Including the "Hate on Israel" part.

Last I heard, our 'friends' the Saudis weren't inviting Bibi for dinner.
Actually, secular Persian nationalists would probably not feel any need to pretend to give a fuck about the Palestinians, and they would probably be OK with being on cordial terms with a country that doesn't threaten their border, doesn't like the Saudis, and has a competent intelligence service. I doubt they would be buddies but they would probably be cordial.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Kolohe » 15 Mar 2015, 21:12

thoreau wrote:The Iranian regime wants what Iranian leaders have always wanted: oil money, control over the people, and useful relationships with neighbors so they can guard against the lesser non-Persian peoples on their borders. Replace the theocrats with secular Persian nationalists and the foreign policy will look remarkably similar.
Our foreign policy or the Iranian foreign policy? Either way, foreign policy under the Shah (secular Persian nationalist) (more or less) for both sides was significantly different than what it would become after 1979. (and what it would be now would be different as well, because the Cold War is over and oil nationalization is a done deal)
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Jennifer » 16 Mar 2015, 08:01

Kolohe wrote:
thoreau wrote:The Iranian regime wants what Iranian leaders have always wanted: oil money, control over the people, and useful relationships with neighbors so they can guard against the lesser non-Persian peoples on their borders. Replace the theocrats with secular Persian nationalists and the foreign policy will look remarkably similar.
Our foreign policy or the Iranian foreign policy? Either way, foreign policy under the Shah (secular Persian nationalist) (more or less) for both sides was significantly different than what it would become after 1979. (and what it would be now would be different as well, because the Cold War is over and oil nationalization is a done deal)
The Shah wasn't an independent leader, though, merely the son of the puppet dictator America installed after overthrowing the Iranians' democratically elected leader.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 01 Apr 2015, 11:14

So when Iran does get tha bomb, do they also get a chair on the other side of the table when the time comes to prevent the next country from getting one?
Diplomats from the United States, France, Britain, Germany, Russia and China had been racing to beat a self-imposed March 31 deadline for a preliminary agreement with Iran. The ultimate goal is a comprehensive deal that would ease sanctions on Iran in exchange for actions aimed at preventing it from obtaining a nuclear weapon.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Mo » 01 Apr 2015, 11:19

Germany doesn't have nukes.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 01 Apr 2015, 11:21

Mo wrote:Germany doesn't have nukes.
No, but the US is keeping some in their garage.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Taktix® » 01 Apr 2015, 11:30

Hugh Akston wrote:
Ideology is the raison d’etre of Iran’s regime, legitimating its rule and inspiring its leaders and their supporters. In this sense, it is akin to communist, fascist and Nazi regimes that set out to transform the world. Iran aims to carry its Islamic revolution across the Middle East and beyond. A nuclear arsenal, even if it is only brandished, would vastly enhance Iran’s power to achieve that goal.

Such visionary regimes do not trade power for a mess of foreign goods. Materialism is not their priority: They often sacrifice prosperity to adhere to ideology.
Ah, well those Other guys are irrational frothing-at-the-mouth ideologues who can't possibly be reasoned with. I guess war really is our only recourse.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by JasonL » 01 Apr 2015, 11:30

I think it a bit odd that we are unwilling to acknowledge a wee bit of discomfort at the idea of a nuclear Iran. I would acknowledge such. Not enough to go to war, but that could be a bad scene.

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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Mo » 01 Apr 2015, 11:36

I will acknowledge, however, we should also acknowledge the following:

nuclear Iran > nuclear NoKo
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 01 Apr 2015, 11:37

I will compile a list of obligatory points to acknowledge and append them to all future posts concerning Iran and nuclear weapons talks.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by Hugh Akston » 01 Apr 2015, 11:39

I'm just as comfortable with Iran possessing nukes as I am with the US possessing them.
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Re: Iran (so far away)

Post by thoreau » 01 Apr 2015, 11:41

DISCLAIMER: I disagree with Hugh's post directly above.
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