I just don't get it

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lunchstealer
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Aug 2018, 14:14

dhex wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 06:42
Ventilating bin laden is not ever going to be seen as a negative. Cause I mean cmon fuck that guy.
Yeah I oppose it on the principle of if-you-can-arrest-him-arrest-him-and-put-his-ass-on-trial-and-then-maybe-hook-him-up-to-a-needle-if-we're-still-doing-that-sort-of-thing because the state shouldn't be in the business of targeted murder. Also just let his ass rot in prison forever.

However given that Jeffs has been able to do video direction of his org from prison, I'm not sanguine about the safety of keeping bin Laden on federal ice, but still that's the right procedural methodology.

The only thing about that raid that I REALLY have a problem with is that it was a kill not capture raid. Everything else about it went pretty damned well by almost any standards, and it's one of the minority of military actions in the past 20 years that's unequivocally justifiable if any military action is justifiable.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Aresen » 17 Aug 2018, 17:46

lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 14:14
dhex wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 06:42
Ventilating bin laden is not ever going to be seen as a negative. Cause I mean cmon fuck that guy.
Yeah I oppose it on the principle of if-you-can-arrest-him-arrest-him-and-put-his-ass-on-trial-and-then-maybe-hook-him-up-to-a-needle-if-we're-still-doing-that-sort-of-thing because the state shouldn't be in the business of targeted murder. Also just let his ass rot in prison forever.

However given that Jeffs has been able to do video direction of his org from prison, I'm not sanguine about the safety of keeping bin Laden on federal ice, but still that's the right procedural methodology.

The only thing about that raid that I REALLY have a problem with is that it was a kill not capture raid. Everything else about it went pretty damned well by almost any standards, and it's one of the minority of military actions in the past 20 years that's unequivocally justifiable if any military action is justifiable.
The possibility of capturing OBL alive was minute, even after they knew where he was.

Assume for a moment that the Seal team had captured him. Pakistan would have fought against his extradition: Maybe not overtly, but it is pretty obvious the ISI was protecting him and would have mobilized to keep him from being taken to the US.

Personally, I have always wondered why the Boss Class was 'off limits' during wars. I see no moral reason for this and OBL was certainly engaged in organizing a war against the US (and the rest of the world.) Fuck him. Die In A Fire-Fight.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Mo » 17 Aug 2018, 18:11

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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Number 6 » 17 Aug 2018, 18:39

Capturing OBL would have presented a host of problems above and beyond extradition. (And pulling him out Noriega style would probably have created an even greater international relations fiasco.) Where would he be kept? How on earth would you try the guy? And then what?
I'm loathe to call for anyone's death. But if there's an exception to be made, it's in the case of OBL. I'm opposed to the death penalty, but was gratified to see Saddam swing, despite my horror at the Iraq invasion. I'm bothered by extrajudicial killing, and by incursion into another country's territory to do so, but I'm also glad that OBL is dead.
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lunchstealer
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Aug 2018, 20:14

Aresen wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 17:46
lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 14:14
dhex wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 06:42
Ventilating bin laden is not ever going to be seen as a negative. Cause I mean cmon fuck that guy.
Yeah I oppose it on the principle of if-you-can-arrest-him-arrest-him-and-put-his-ass-on-trial-and-then-maybe-hook-him-up-to-a-needle-if-we're-still-doing-that-sort-of-thing because the state shouldn't be in the business of targeted murder. Also just let his ass rot in prison forever.

However given that Jeffs has been able to do video direction of his org from prison, I'm not sanguine about the safety of keeping bin Laden on federal ice, but still that's the right procedural methodology.

The only thing about that raid that I REALLY have a problem with is that it was a kill not capture raid. Everything else about it went pretty damned well by almost any standards, and it's one of the minority of military actions in the past 20 years that's unequivocally justifiable if any military action is justifiable.
The possibility of capturing OBL alive was minute, even after they knew where he was.

Assume for a moment that the Seal team had captured him. Pakistan would have fought against his extradition: Maybe not overtly, but it is pretty obvious the ISI was protecting him and would have mobilized to keep him from being taken to the US.

Personally, I have always wondered why the Boss Class was 'off limits' during wars. I see no moral reason for this and OBL was certainly engaged in organizing a war against the US (and the rest of the world.) Fuck him. Die In A Fire-Fight.
My only beef is that it was apparently a kill order from the get go, with no capture at all. If the order turns out to have been capture but if there's resistance and you see a threat take it out regardless then we'll sort it out afterwards, then that's a little different.

I have no problem with the targeting of Yamamoto's plane, for example, because you can't reasonably capture an entire airplane. I mean, maybe, but it's awfully fraught in the uncertainty of an air war.

And my objection is purely procedural and I'm open to the idea that the cure would be worse than the disease in OBLs case.

And in any event, the kill is 99% out of 100 where 100 is at least make capture an option if you legit get him sleeping or whatnot.

I also have limited problems with raiding a sovereign country in time of war if there is serious reason to believe that enemy forces are there as part of conducting the war. It may be a problem pragmatically or diplomatically but morally? One should have a good reason for not letting the other country handle it, but otherwise I'm not sure that tagging your base should make you safe if you carry arms in a war.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Kolohe » 17 Aug 2018, 20:20

This is just speculation, but I'm pretty sure they had the contigency to bring Osama back on the helicopter, but were given a ROE that made offing him a likely decision.

They took back some of his wives, didn't they?
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 17 Aug 2018, 20:21

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Kolohe
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Kolohe » 17 Aug 2018, 20:23

I mean, if they just wanted to off Bin Laden, why not flying killer robot like they did with al-Awlaki & Son.?
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Aug 2018, 20:34

The bin Laden raid kind of exemplifies a lot of what is wrong with the US.

First, the warfare mindset despite the lack of any formal declaration thereof, and in spite of the reality that the dreaded enemy who supposedly declared war on us is a loose confederation of squabbling groups totaling no more than a few thousand people who pose no existential threat to the US or its overseas imperialism. This mindset has dragged the country into two inconceivably expensive quagmires that are older than the people fighting in them, and may outlive even the ones who make it home.

I certainly don't fault the CIA for taking its time to gather and verify intelligence in such an important case, but I can't help thinking that the search might have gone quicker if the US had worked with the Pakistanis rather than pepper them with drone bombs and infiltrate them with fake doctors. On the other hand the US has a marvelous track record of fucking over local sources, so what do I know?

Once they did track him down, they sent the JSOC door kickers to put a bullet in the brain of—not Dr. Doom—but a soft spoken unarmed middle-aged man who walks with a cane. They did this because:

- The United States is so far from the moral high ground that taking bin Laden alive would have made him the hero political prisoner.
- The federal government is unequal to the task of proving his guilt in a fair, public, adversarial courtroom as required by the constitution, so they would dick around for decades while he turned to dust in a Gitmo holding cell.
- Even if they did have the evidence and casework to convince a jury, doing so would necessarily bring to light the dirty shit the CIA did to bring him in, and plausible deniability beats justice any day of the week.
- At the end of the day the powerful (and even the powerless) people in America consider constitutional protections to be mere suggestions that can be circumvented when they become inconvenient because we're at war and fuck that guy.

Then after the murder squad earned their bonuses they dropped the body unceremoniously into the sea, and never released photos or DNA evidence to the public, partly because something something national security and something something public safety but mostly because of the culture of secrecy and dissembling bullshit in DC that can't even be bothered to get its story straight first because it knows nobody is going to bother calling them on it.

Instead, everyone cheers Obama's pimp walk because we live in such a degenerate society that institutional ineffectiveness is the order of the day and scarequote war justifies any atrocity and the premeditated murder of a human being without so much as a fart in the direction of due process seems like a victory over evil because fuck that guy.
Last edited by Hugh Akston on 17 Aug 2018, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Kolohe » 17 Aug 2018, 20:46

help thinking that the search might have gone quicker if the US had worked with the Pakistanis rather than pepper them with drone bombs and infiltrate them with fake doctors
The US gov was working with the Pakistani government since 9/12/2001.

The Pakistani government was playing both sides of the street the whole time. (Or, more charitably portions of the Pakistani government were at war with other portions of the Pakistani government before and after 9/11 and too the very day)
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 17 Aug 2018, 20:50

Hugh Akston wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:34
First, the warfare mindset despite the lack of any formal declaration thereof, and in spite of the reality that the dreaded enemy who supposedly declared war on us is a loose confederation of squabbling groups totaling no more than a few thousand people who pose no existential threat to the US or its overseas imperialism.
While I agree with this in principle, OBL took the credit for 9/11. In what world does the US not smoke his ass?
At the end of the day the powerful (and even the powerless) people in America consider constitutional protections to be mere suggestions that can be circumvented when they become inconvenient because we're at war and fuck that guy.
This is what I'm sayin.
Then after the murder squad earned their bonuses they dropped the body unceremoniously into the sea, and never released photos or DNA evidence to the public, partly because something something national security and something something public safety but mostly because of the culture of secrecy and dissembling bullshit in DC that can't even be bothered to get its story straight first because it knows nobody is going to bother calling them on it.
That's one possibility. Another might be that OBL was a CIA operative, 9/11 was an inside job, and he's now managing a Holiday Inn outside of Akron.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 17 Aug 2018, 21:11

Aresen wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 17:13
Rick Mercer is a Canadian leftist comedian whose primary schtick was "Talking to Americans" where he would ambush ordinary Americans to show how ignorant they were (usually of Canada). I hated the schtick both because it played into a popular Canadian Leftist prejudice and you absolutely know that the comments from people who made intelligent responses got edited out.
Not to mention never seriously addressed the overarching question why anyone other than Canadians should know anything about Canada.

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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Andrew » 17 Aug 2018, 21:42

Warren wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:50
That's one possibility. Another might be that OBL was a CIA operative, 9/11 was an inside job, and he's now managing a Holiday Inn outside of Akron.
Omaha, not Akron. It's next door the Cinnabon where Saul is.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Ellie » 17 Aug 2018, 22:08

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 21:11
Aresen wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 17:13
Rick Mercer is a Canadian leftist comedian whose primary schtick was "Talking to Americans" where he would ambush ordinary Americans to show how ignorant they were (usually of Canada). I hated the schtick both because it played into a popular Canadian Leftist prejudice and you absolutely know that the comments from people who made intelligent responses got edited out.
Not to mention never seriously addressed the overarching question why anyone other than Canadians should know anything about Canada.
:lol:
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Aug 2018, 22:52

Warren wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:50
Hugh Akston wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:34
First, the warfare mindset despite the lack of any formal declaration thereof, and in spite of the reality that the dreaded enemy who supposedly declared war on us is a loose confederation of squabbling groups totaling no more than a few thousand people who pose no existential threat to the US or its overseas imperialism.
While I agree with this in principle, OBL took the credit for 9/11. In what world does the US not smoke his ass?
A world where guilt is established by evidence and a jury of peers rather than big talk and a disposition matrix; and where compassion and restraint are respected because retributive violence doesn't bring people back from the dead. Although Firefly never made it to season 2 in that world either, so it's not clear that its actually any better than this one.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 17 Aug 2018, 23:36

Hugh Akston wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 22:52
A world where guilt is established by evidence and a jury of peers rather than big talk and a disposition matrix; and where compassion and restraint are respected because retributive violence doesn't bring people back from the dead.
Ah right, Fantasyland.
Although Firefly never made it to season 2 in that world either, so it's not clear that its actually any better than this one.
Cheers.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 18 Aug 2018, 07:45

Team I Celebrated Ventilation because yes fuck that guy. The lengths you have to go to ignore actual monstrous behavior when you write that description ... your view of moral high ground is questionable.

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Re: I just don't get it

Post by nicole » 18 Aug 2018, 08:36

I mean we had like extremely out-monstered him by then though.
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Aresen
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Aresen » 18 Aug 2018, 10:14

nicole wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 08:36
I mean we had like extremely out-monstered him by then though.
The problem was more that W was a well-meaning fool. (Like many a POTUS before him.) Yes, he lied to get the war in Iraq, but he really thought he could nation-build in Afghanistan and Iraq. As did O in Egypt, Libya and Syria.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 10:47

Aresen wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:14
The problem was more that W was a well-meaning fool. (Like many a POTUS before him.) Yes, he lied to get the war in Iraq, but he really thought he could nation-build in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The problem with the well-meaning fool diagnosis, is that he campaigned hard against nation building. He knew what he was doing.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Dangerman » 18 Aug 2018, 13:11

I think it's a good thing that they helicoptered in some real American heroes so there were fewer civilians at risk, rather than droning a while household. If the gummint only conducted raids like this, they would have less pushback from me. Matter of fact, if I was in a position where I had a private army that could drop in and murder bin Laden, I would green light that shit. He's an unrepentant mass murderer by his own repeated public admission. He has taken up the sword. Let him die by it.

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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Hugh Akston » 18 Aug 2018, 14:12

JasonL wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 07:45
Team I Celebrated Ventilation because yes fuck that guy. The lengths you have to go to ignore actual monstrous behavior when you write that description ... your view of moral high ground is questionable.
The constitution is a little fuzzy on how monstrous someone has to be before he forfeits his day in court and summary execution is called for. What's your standard?
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Warren
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 14:50

People who talk at the theater.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Number 6 » 18 Aug 2018, 15:02

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:50
People who talk at the theater.
...Special hell.
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by nicole » 18 Aug 2018, 15:36

People who stand left on escalators.
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