I just don't get it

Dangerman
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Dangerman » 12 Jun 2018, 14:05

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JasonL
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 12 Jun 2018, 14:13

I don't get why vocal fry is the thing we all focused on when to me the obvious case of patriarchy infantilizing women through vocal patterns is the whatchacallit hanging "a" young women have adopted.

Person: "Let's go to Chick Fil A"
Afflicted young womyn: "No - a!"

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nicole
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by nicole » 12 Jun 2018, 14:15

It’s called “creaky voice” in linguistics. Which is a much better description of it.
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Ellie
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Ellie » 12 Jun 2018, 14:19

I am not familiar with the "hanging a"! Perhaps it is a Southern thing.

I also don't understand how anyone can notice what tone of voice young women are using when they have to, like, listen, like, to the words, like, through an endless, like, parade of like-as-filler utterances. OH MY GOD STOP. STOP. JUST SAY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY. I WILL MURDER YOU IF YOU SAY "LIKE" ONE MORE TIME.
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Warren
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 12 Jun 2018, 14:25

JasonL wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 14:13
I don't get why vocal fry is the thing we all focused on when to me the obvious case of patriarchy infantilizing women through vocal patterns is the whatchacallit hanging "a" young women have adopted.

Person: "Let's go to Chick Fil A"
Afflicted young womyn: "No - a!"
Is it distinct from the Canadian 'eh'?
Ellie wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 14:19
I also don't understand how anyone can notice what tone of voice young women are using when they have to, like, listen, like, to the words, like, through an endless, like, parade of like-as-filler utterances. OH MY GOD STOP. STOP. JUST SAY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY. I WILL MURDER YOU IF YOU SAY "LIKE" ONE MORE TIME.
Newsletter please.

The one that makes me all murdery is upspeak. NOT EVERYTHING IS A QUESTION.
FTR It does seem like it's more of a thing with women, but it is just as annoying when men do it.
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JasonL
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 12 Jun 2018, 14:34

Man it’s hard to google for an example of no-ah. You get bible stuff or how to say no in your life stuff or vocal fry stuff but I feel like this is all around me and I can’t get google to show you.

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Highway
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Highway » 12 Jun 2018, 14:36

I've found vocal fry a lot easier to distinguish now that our office has some young women engineers in our department. There's definitely a difference in the way they speak to different people and in meetings. Sometimes I wonder if I should point it out to them, as well as their uptalking, but then feel like it's not my place to say anything.

ETA: There are definitely some guys who do it too, but not as many and not as frequently.
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JasonL
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 12 Jun 2018, 14:39

I see some people do this as “no - uh”.

https://www.google.com/amp/observer.com ... harge/amp/

“One example is something utterly unnoticed yet spreading like kudzu: young women hanging an “uh” at the end of words and sentences. “How are you-uh!!” a woman might say on happily running into friends. “You have plenty of room-uh!” Sara Hyland’s Haley objected on an episode of Modern Family–and note that the “uh” surely wasn’t in the script; Ms. Hyland, as an American woman under thirty, subconsciously added it. I have also caught it from Gina Rodriguez on Jane the Virgin (“Shut up-uh!!” said playfully) and various young women on Broadway.”

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tr0g
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by tr0g » 12 Jun 2018, 14:42

Uptalking used to be an upper-class Southern thing. My uncle (old school Georgia) still does it and I think it's weird, but he's my uncle. Whatcha gonna do? Tell the 80 year old guy his lifelong speech pattern needs to change because kids these days? My aunt, too, but way less than him.
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Highway
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Highway » 12 Jun 2018, 14:46

JasonL wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 14:39
I see some people do this as “no - uh”.

https://www.google.com/amp/observer.com ... harge/amp/

“One example is something utterly unnoticed yet spreading like kudzu: young women hanging an “uh” at the end of words and sentences. “How are you-uh!!” a woman might say on happily running into friends. “You have plenty of room-uh!” Sara Hyland’s Haley objected on an episode of Modern Family–and note that the “uh” surely wasn’t in the script; Ms. Hyland, as an American woman under thirty, subconsciously added it. I have also caught it from Gina Rodriguez on Jane the Virgin (“Shut up-uh!!” said playfully) and various young women on Broadway.”
Vocal fry is also really apparent in the examples that they link to from Language log of Sarah Koenig. They point out the "1999", but I find it a lot easier to hear later in the clip (show 537) in words like "part" or "instance" or "investigator". It's a lot more evident at the end of sentences when the energy drops, that extra vibration that seems to come from back in the throat.
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Warren
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Warren » 12 Jun 2018, 15:13

JasonL wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 14:39
I see some people do this as “no - uh”.

https://www.google.com/amp/observer.com ... harge/amp/

“One example is something utterly unnoticed yet spreading like kudzu: young women hanging an “uh” at the end of words and sentences. “How are you-uh!!” a woman might say on happily running into friends. “You have plenty of room-uh!” Sara Hyland’s Haley objected on an episode of Modern Family–and note that the “uh” surely wasn’t in the script; Ms. Hyland, as an American woman under thirty, subconsciously added it. I have also caught it from Gina Rodriguez on Jane the Virgin (“Shut up-uh!!” said playfully) and various young women on Broadway.”
RTFA
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Kolohe
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Kolohe » 12 Jun 2018, 15:23

I thought I was aware of All Traditions but I have literally never heard of all this stuff until just now.
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JasonL
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 12 Jun 2018, 15:26

FTR - I'm fine with fry, dislike uptalk, and used to be driven to rage by the "uh" thing, which is now ubiquitous such that I don't think it odd anymore. It's nearly 100% of all cow orkers, friends and acquaintances who are women folk 30 and under.

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Jasper
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Jasper » 12 Jun 2018, 16:02

Apparently, it's this.

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lunchstealer
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Jun 2018, 16:25

It's when those with toxic masculine privilege make you talk while you have baby fish in your mouth.
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Mo
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Mo » 12 Jun 2018, 17:10

Dangerman wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 13:39
It's a thing that the patriarchy makes women do but I'll be dammed if I can actually figure out what it is. I listened to a whole podcast with women listening to examples and talking about the social implications, but I still have no idea.
No, the patriarchy complains about women doing it, when the women can't help doing it.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Jun 2018, 17:23

Mo wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 17:10
Dangerman wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 13:39
It's a thing that the patriarchy makes women do but I'll be dammed if I can actually figure out what it is. I listened to a whole podcast with women listening to examples and talking about the social implications, but I still have no idea.
No, the patriarchy complains about women doing it, when the women can't help doing it.
Eh, anyone can help doing it; it's a learned behavior, and that very article has an example of the NPR guy's daughter using it or not in a form of code-switching. The question is whether they should, and the answers to that are the same as for any other generational vocal affectation.
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Jadagul
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Jadagul » 12 Jun 2018, 21:23

Well, vocal fry isn't an incredibly healthy way to talk. Over the long run it can damage your voice, which is why classical singers try not to use it despite it getting you deeper into your low register.

(My memory is that there are basically 4-5 vocal registers. Fry is at the bottom; then chest voice, then head voice, then falsetto, then whistle tones. Most people can't produce whistle tones. Some people use head voice to refer to the same thing as falsetto; I'm not sure that the thing the others are talking about is genuinely a separate register, since I think it's the same anatomical action of the vocal chords).

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Eric the .5b
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Jun 2018, 22:10

Jadagul wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:23
Well, vocal fry isn't an incredibly healthy way to talk. Over the long run it can damage your voice, which is why classical singers try not to use it despite it getting you deeper into your low register.
What kind of damage are we talking about? Because checking online, I'm seeing everything from "traumatic lesions!" to "no real effects unless you, maybe, shout a lot while using it".
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Jadagul
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Jadagul » 13 Jun 2018, 00:33

Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 22:10
Jadagul wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:23
Well, vocal fry isn't an incredibly healthy way to talk. Over the long run it can damage your voice, which is why classical singers try not to use it despite it getting you deeper into your low register.
What kind of damage are we talking about? Because checking online, I'm seeing everything from "traumatic lesions!" to "no real effects unless you, maybe, shout a lot while using it".
I'm not sure I can be too precise here, but I know that it puts some strain on the vocal chords. Probably more if you do it a lot, or loudly.

I'm mostly familiar with it from talking to singing instructors, who tend to be super paranoid about anything that puts strain on the vocal chords, because it makes it harder to sing in the relaxed way you're supposed to, and also their jobs are their voices and so any vocal damage is a real problem.

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Highway
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Highway » 13 Jun 2018, 07:06

Eric the .5b wrote:
Jadagul wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:23
Well, vocal fry isn't an incredibly healthy way to talk. Over the long run it can damage your voice, which is why classical singers try not to use it despite it getting you deeper into your low register.
What kind of damage are we talking about? Because checking online, I'm seeing everything from "traumatic lesions!" to "no real effects unless you, maybe, shout a lot while using it".
The damage could be anywhere in that range, because everyone's susceptibility is different. Some people are very resilient, other people are more likely to develop problems.
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JasonL
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by JasonL » 13 Jun 2018, 09:15

We are talking damage distinct from "sounding like a Kardashian"?

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Kolohe
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Kolohe » 13 Jun 2018, 10:31

A Kardashian now has more victories in the drug war than Gary Johnson does.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Ellie
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Ellie » 13 Jun 2018, 11:17

Jasper wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 16:02
Apparently, it's this.

That made me genuinely LOL.
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

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Eric the .5b
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Re: I just don't get it

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jun 2018, 15:30

Highway wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 07:06
Eric the .5b wrote:
Jadagul wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:23
Well, vocal fry isn't an incredibly healthy way to talk. Over the long run it can damage your voice, which is why classical singers try not to use it despite it getting you deeper into your low register.
What kind of damage are we talking about? Because checking online, I'm seeing everything from "traumatic lesions!" to "no real effects unless you, maybe, shout a lot while using it".
The damage could be anywhere in that range, because everyone's susceptibility is different. Some people are very resilient, other people are more likely to develop problems.
How many "other people" are actually going to suffer problems, and how bad will they be? Because this vagueness sounds like a scare extrapolated from "singers shouldn't sing in this register" to "ZOMG talking at a normal volume in that register will ruin your voice!"
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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