A thread for mocking politicians

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lunchstealer
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Mar 2019, 20:44

Painboy wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 13:42
JD wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 12:23
Bernie Sanders says that he hasn't done a good enough job explaining democratic socialism. He says that "democratic" means "voting on things", and "socialism" means "prosperity".

So basically, he thinks you can just vote yourself rich.
I really hate the democracy fetish some of the left has. It's a better way to choose your leaders than civil war, but voting on everything is just not an efficient way to decide things.
I kinda think that plebiscite democracy can have a valuable place in overturning entrenched thinking - see recreational re-legalization of cannabis. Individual pols don't want to be associated with anything too revolutionary in case it goes to shit, but a plebiscite lets them do what a significant majority wants to do without putting their own asses on the line. But sometimes they're stupid, and the biggest problem is that they're simple majorities. 5,000,007 people can force 5,000,006 people to live with a dumb result. Plebiscites should require a supermajority - at least a 10-point margin, preferably two-thirds. If two thirds of voters can't agree on something, maybe just let the republican system handle it.
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Mo
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Mo » 19 Mar 2019, 08:40

I will go to my grave believing Devin Nunes' lawyers put this image as an exhibit in his lawsuit against Twitter because they hate him and want everyone to see it.

Image
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by dhex » 19 Mar 2019, 09:23

Tfw you don't know if someone is really into self sabotage or is bad at slaap suits.
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thoreau
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by thoreau » 19 Mar 2019, 10:50

Wait, Twitter can be sued if someone uses it to post pictures that offend politicians? WTF?
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Highway
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Highway » 19 Mar 2019, 13:01

Anyone *can* be sued. Then you figure out if it's a meritless suit.
(That might be a pretty good description of Devin Nunes, too)
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Aresen
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Aresen » 19 Mar 2019, 13:21

You'd think people would have figured out the Streisand effect by now.
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Painboy » 20 Mar 2019, 14:07

Eric the .5b wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 15:59
Painboy wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 13:42
JD wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 12:23
Bernie Sanders says that he hasn't done a good enough job explaining democratic socialism. He says that "democratic" means "voting on things", and "socialism" means "prosperity".

So basically, he thinks you can just vote yourself rich.
I really hate the democracy fetish some of the left has. It's a better way to choose your leaders than civil war, but voting on everything is just not an efficient way to decide things.
Remember that the rest of the left has a technocratic fetish for The Right Sort of People deciding everything, and the democratic fetishists come off better.
I actually don't think so. As much as I despise them "The Right Sort of People" types at least understand that's the only way to get what they want. There is some understanding of reality in there somewhere. The democracy fetishists actually believe that democracy will give them the outcomes they want. It's like they don't know democracy and slavery have lived together throughout most of human history.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Eric the .5b » 20 Mar 2019, 19:09

Painboy wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 14:07
Eric the .5b wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 15:59
Painboy wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 13:42
JD wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 12:23
Bernie Sanders says that he hasn't done a good enough job explaining democratic socialism. He says that "democratic" means "voting on things", and "socialism" means "prosperity".

So basically, he thinks you can just vote yourself rich.
I really hate the democracy fetish some of the left has. It's a better way to choose your leaders than civil war, but voting on everything is just not an efficient way to decide things.
Remember that the rest of the left has a technocratic fetish for The Right Sort of People deciding everything, and the democratic fetishists come off better.
I actually don't think so. As much as I despise them "The Right Sort of People" types at least understand that's the only way to get what they want. There is some understanding of reality in there somewhere. The democracy fetishists actually believe that democracy will give them the outcomes they want. It's like they don't know democracy and slavery have lived together throughout most of human history.
...Not on this planet, no. Most of human history hasn't had democracy, for one, and democracies started dropping slavery in the 1800s.

But whatever.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2019, 11:39

Eric the .5b wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 19:09
Painboy wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 14:07
Eric the .5b wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 15:59
Painboy wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 13:42
JD wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 12:23
Bernie Sanders says that he hasn't done a good enough job explaining democratic socialism. He says that "democratic" means "voting on things", and "socialism" means "prosperity".

So basically, he thinks you can just vote yourself rich.
I really hate the democracy fetish some of the left has. It's a better way to choose your leaders than civil war, but voting on everything is just not an efficient way to decide things.
Remember that the rest of the left has a technocratic fetish for The Right Sort of People deciding everything, and the democratic fetishists come off better.
I actually don't think so. As much as I despise them "The Right Sort of People" types at least understand that's the only way to get what they want. There is some understanding of reality in there somewhere. The democracy fetishists actually believe that democracy will give them the outcomes they want. It's like they don't know democracy and slavery have lived together throughout most of human history.
...Not on this planet, no. Most of human history hasn't had democracy, for one, and democracies started dropping slavery in the 1800s.

But whatever.
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.

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Aresen
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Aresen » 21 Mar 2019, 17:10

Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 11:39
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.
Even in the examples you cite, the franchise was highly restricted even among the putatively 'free' citizens. Beyond that, they are still a tiny minority of the states that have existed.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 21 Mar 2019, 17:18

JD wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 12:23
Bernie Sanders says that he hasn't done a good enough job explaining democratic socialism. He says that "democratic" means "voting on things", and "socialism" means "prosperity".

So basically, he thinks you can just vote yourself rich.
That's how he got those three houses.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Eric the .5b » 21 Mar 2019, 17:51

Aresen wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:10
Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 11:39
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.
Even in the examples you cite, the franchise was highly restricted even among the putatively 'free' citizens. Beyond that, they are still a tiny minority of the states that have existed.
Yes, Athenian "democracy" (among a free minority of Athenian men and, obviously, none of the women) was a lousy 180 years. The US didn't even keep slavery a hundred years. In the ~5000 years of recorded world history? Fucking eyeblinks..

And as lousy as I think democracy is, it's still better than every other damn option anyone's offered. So, yes, I will absolutely give democracy-fetishizing lefties a smidgen of a break compared to the ones who want us little people to have no input at all into the government telling us how to live our lives.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2019, 20:31

Eric the .5b wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:51
Aresen wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:10
Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 11:39
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.
Even in the examples you cite, the franchise was highly restricted even among the putatively 'free' citizens. Beyond that, they are still a tiny minority of the states that have existed.
Yes, Athenian "democracy" (among a free minority of Athenian men and, obviously, none of the women) was a lousy 180 years. The US didn't even keep slavery a hundred years. In the ~5000 years of recorded world history? Fucking eyeblinks..

And as lousy as I think democracy is, it's still better than every other damn option anyone's offered. So, yes, I will absolutely give democracy-fetishizing lefties a smidgen of a break compared to the ones who want us little people to have no input at all into the government telling us how to live our lives.
You're still missing my point. The idea that 51% of a voting body has a moral right over anyone in the other 49% is what the issue is. They act like that only good things can come of that. That a majority decision in itself is justification for whatever the majority decides. It's foolishly simplistic thinking.

And let's try not twisting this into "I hate democracy" okay? ;)

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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Hugh Akston » 21 Mar 2019, 20:42

🙋 I hate democracy
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Aresen » 21 Mar 2019, 21:11

Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 20:31
You're still missing my point. The idea that 51% of a voting body has a moral right over anyone in the other 49% is what the issue is. They act like that only good things can come of that. That a majority decision in itself is justification for whatever the majority decides. It's foolishly simplistic thinking.
In parliamentary democracies, you can get 40% or less electing a "majority" government (i.e. one with more than half the seats in the parliament), so I do get your point. And those who fetishize democracy really believe that gives them the right to cram anything down the minority's throat. (Brexit in the UK, where the 'Leave' got 52% of the vote, is a good example how a simple majority vote can f**k things up. The 1995 Quebec Sovereignty Referendum, which was decided 50.5% No vote, could easily have gone the other way.)

I prefer supermajority requirements, but they are always attacked as 'undemocratic.'
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by JasonL » 21 Mar 2019, 21:17

There should be very few (but nonzero) things that 51% gets to ram down the throats of 49% and the more people subject to that single vote the worse the abomination.

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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by thoreau » 21 Mar 2019, 21:28

Supermajority requirements are inconsistent with a purely majoritarian definition of democracy, but they are wholly consistent with "one person, one vote" if it's a supermajority of voters, with all votes weighted equally. It's much better than giving extra weight to rural people in Wyoming but not rural people in Barstow.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Mar 2019, 03:05

Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 20:31
Eric the .5b wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:51
Aresen wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:10
Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 11:39
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.
Even in the examples you cite, the franchise was highly restricted even among the putatively 'free' citizens. Beyond that, they are still a tiny minority of the states that have existed.
Yes, Athenian "democracy" (among a free minority of Athenian men and, obviously, none of the women) was a lousy 180 years. The US didn't even keep slavery a hundred years. In the ~5000 years of recorded world history? Fucking eyeblinks..

And as lousy as I think democracy is, it's still better than every other damn option anyone's offered. So, yes, I will absolutely give democracy-fetishizing lefties a smidgen of a break compared to the ones who want us little people to have no input at all into the government telling us how to live our lives.
You're still missing my point. The idea that 51% of a voting body has a moral right over anyone in the other 49% is what the issue is. They act like that only good things can come of that. That a majority decision in itself is justification for whatever the majority decides. It's foolishly simplistic thinking.

And let's try not twisting this into "I hate democracy" okay? ;)
*shrug* If that's your complaint, why not? If 51% of people making a decision for everyone riles you more than 0.001% doing it, why not own it?
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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JD
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by JD » 22 Mar 2019, 09:55

This is now completely crossing over between this thread and the EC one, but I for one don't really give a shit about democracy per se. I care about rights and freedoms. Democracy is kind of a secondary goal, and it tends to be better at protecting rights and freedoms than other forms of governments, but it isn't what I consider a primary goal. And this is not a purely theoretical concern, either; there have been examples of undemocratic governments which do a decent job of protecting the rights of minorities that then get overthrown by a more "democratic" movement which proceeds to stomp on the rights of minorities.

And a focus on "51% grants the Mandate of Heaven" also has second-order effects. If whoever gets 51% of the vote has the whip hand and can do whatever they want, that leads to, at best, policies whipsawing wildly between administrations, and at worst, the parties deciding that anything they can do to ensure they never have to give up power is both morally and legally justified.
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Mo
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Mo » 22 Mar 2019, 11:01

JD wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 09:55
This is now completely crossing over between this thread and the EC one, but I for one don't really give a shit about democracy per se. I care about rights and freedoms. Democracy is kind of a secondary goal, and it tends to be better at protecting rights and freedoms than other forms of governments, but it isn't what I consider a primary goal. And this is not a purely theoretical concern, either; there have been examples of undemocratic governments which do a decent job of protecting the rights of minorities that then get overthrown by a more "democratic" movement which proceeds to stomp on the rights of minorities.

And a focus on "51% grants the Mandate of Heaven" also has second-order effects. If whoever gets 51% of the vote has the whip hand and can do whatever they want, that leads to, at best, policies whipsawing wildly between administrations, and at worst, the parties deciding that anything they can do to ensure they never have to give up power is both morally and legally justified.
It's not like not getting 50% has caused any modesty. Instead we get "51% of EV grants the Mandate of the Founding Fathers!" Neither Trump nor W acted any differently with their victories than the popular vote winner and instead we get this fiction that land that's empty except for meth labs and livestock have the voting power.

Like some fucking moron made this argument in WaPo.
Just look at a county-by-county map of the 2016 election — you can actually drive from coast to coast without driving through a single county that voted for Hillary Clinton.
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Aresen » 22 Mar 2019, 11:52

Mo wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 11:01
JD wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 09:55
This is now completely crossing over between this thread and the EC one, but I for one don't really give a shit about democracy per se. I care about rights and freedoms. Democracy is kind of a secondary goal, and it tends to be better at protecting rights and freedoms than other forms of governments, but it isn't what I consider a primary goal. And this is not a purely theoretical concern, either; there have been examples of undemocratic governments which do a decent job of protecting the rights of minorities that then get overthrown by a more "democratic" movement which proceeds to stomp on the rights of minorities.

And a focus on "51% grants the Mandate of Heaven" also has second-order effects. If whoever gets 51% of the vote has the whip hand and can do whatever they want, that leads to, at best, policies whipsawing wildly between administrations, and at worst, the parties deciding that anything they can do to ensure they never have to give up power is both morally and legally justified.
Stand up for livestock rights! (Just be careful exactly where you put your feet. :P )
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Painboy
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Painboy » 22 Mar 2019, 15:13

Eric the .5b wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 03:05
Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 20:31
Eric the .5b wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:51
Aresen wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 17:10
Painboy wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 11:39
Athens, Roman Republic, the various Italian republics, the UK, and of course the US to name some. Slavery, segregation, transportation, ghettoization, or other forms of oppression, you have places with democratic institutions making others second class citizens just like other forms of government. Democracy is no guarantee of rights. So for those on the left who act as if it's some panacea that makes everything fair is ridiculous.
Even in the examples you cite, the franchise was highly restricted even among the putatively 'free' citizens. Beyond that, they are still a tiny minority of the states that have existed.
Yes, Athenian "democracy" (among a free minority of Athenian men and, obviously, none of the women) was a lousy 180 years. The US didn't even keep slavery a hundred years. In the ~5000 years of recorded world history? Fucking eyeblinks..

And as lousy as I think democracy is, it's still better than every other damn option anyone's offered. So, yes, I will absolutely give democracy-fetishizing lefties a smidgen of a break compared to the ones who want us little people to have no input at all into the government telling us how to live our lives.
You're still missing my point. The idea that 51% of a voting body has a moral right over anyone in the other 49% is what the issue is. They act like that only good things can come of that. That a majority decision in itself is justification for whatever the majority decides. It's foolishly simplistic thinking.

And let's try not twisting this into "I hate democracy" okay? ;)
*shrug* If that's your complaint, why not? If 51% of people making a decision for everyone riles you more than 0.001% doing it, why not own it?
We're clearly not talking about the same things.

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Painboy
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Painboy » 22 Mar 2019, 15:14

JD wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 09:55
This is now completely crossing over between this thread and the EC one, but I for one don't really give a shit about democracy per se. I care about rights and freedoms. Democracy is kind of a secondary goal, and it tends to be better at protecting rights and freedoms than other forms of governments, but it isn't what I consider a primary goal. And this is not a purely theoretical concern, either; there have been examples of undemocratic governments which do a decent job of protecting the rights of minorities that then get overthrown by a more "democratic" movement which proceeds to stomp on the rights of minorities.

And a focus on "51% grants the Mandate of Heaven" also has second-order effects. If whoever gets 51% of the vote has the whip hand and can do whatever they want, that leads to, at best, policies whipsawing wildly between administrations, and at worst, the parties deciding that anything they can do to ensure they never have to give up power is both morally and legally justified.
This is more of what I was going for.

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lunchstealer
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by lunchstealer » 22 Mar 2019, 19:10

Back to mocking pols, this has gotta sting.




@DPRK_News

DPRK News Service Retweeted Donald J. Trump

Gift of one stick of butter from Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un to Donald Trump serves its purpose.
Verified account @realDonaldTrump
It was announced today by the U.S. Treasury that additional large scale Sanctions would be added to those already existing Sanctions on North Korea. I have today ordered the withdrawal of those additional Sanctions!
@DPRK_News

DPRK News Service Retweeted John Bolton

Pwned.
Verified account @AmbJohnBolton
Important actions today from @USTreasury; the maritime industry must do more to stop North Korea’s illicit shipping practices. Everyone should take notice and review their own activities to ensure they are not involved in North Korea’s sanctions evasion.
Last edited by lunchstealer on 22 Mar 2019, 19:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: A thread for mocking politicians

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Mar 2019, 19:11

Painboy wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 15:14
JD wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 09:55
This is now completely crossing over between this thread and the EC one, but I for one don't really give a shit about democracy per se. I care about rights and freedoms. Democracy is kind of a secondary goal, and it tends to be better at protecting rights and freedoms than other forms of governments, but it isn't what I consider a primary goal. And this is not a purely theoretical concern, either; there have been examples of undemocratic governments which do a decent job of protecting the rights of minorities that then get overthrown by a more "democratic" movement which proceeds to stomp on the rights of minorities.

And a focus on "51% grants the Mandate of Heaven" also has second-order effects. If whoever gets 51% of the vote has the whip hand and can do whatever they want, that leads to, at best, policies whipsawing wildly between administrations, and at worst, the parties deciding that anything they can do to ensure they never have to give up power is both morally and legally justified.
This is more of what I was going for.
*shrug*

That has fuck-all to do with anything i was saying, but like a lot of Grylliade arguments lately, it's just not worth pursuing.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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