Marriage is Totally Gay

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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 15 Aug 2018, 16:38

Jasper wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:32
Jennifer wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:23
Jasper wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:11
In the case that Jack won before the Supreme Court, the state admitted that cake artists—including Jack—are free to decline to create custom cakes with a “specific design” that they will not make for anyone.
Freedom of contract is just like Jim Crow.
Not what I claimed, but you likely know that already.
Then why bring it up?
Read the entire comment; you should be able to figure out the context.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Ellie » 15 Aug 2018, 22:41

Just some wholesome gay content: two lesbians surprise each other with a proposal at the exact same time

Code: Select all

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Number 6 » 15 Aug 2018, 23:02

Ellie wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 22:41
Just some wholesome gay content: two lesbians surprise each other with a proposal at the exact same time

Code: Select all

https://www.facebook.com/thefemaleclub/videos/579594975710184/
Also known as the lesbian second date.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Andrew » 16 Aug 2018, 19:16

If religious cake guy is responsible for baking a cake for whoever enters the door, Alex Jones ought to sue Facebook and the other tech companies in Colorado for excluding him from their services.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Aug 2018, 13:53

Andrew wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 19:16
If religious cake guy is responsible for baking a cake for whoever enters the door, Alex Jones ought to sue Facebook and the other tech companies in Colorado for excluding him from their services.
Under ADA for discrimination against the mentally disabled?
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 17 Aug 2018, 18:59

Team Andrew. if anything, being required to continue to provide the same servers and bandwidth is less intrusive than being required to create a custom cake for someone.

I'm not in favor of requiring either of these things, but let's be real about it if we're gonna.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 17 Aug 2018, 19:41

lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 13:53
Andrew wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 19:16
If religious cake guy is responsible for baking a cake for whoever enters the door, Alex Jones ought to sue Facebook and the other tech companies in Colorado for excluding him from their services.
Under ADA for discrimination against the mentally disabled?
*High Fives lunchstealer*
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Aug 2018, 20:22

Eric the .5b wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 18:59
Team Andrew. if anything, being required to continue to provide the same servers and bandwidth is less intrusive than being required to create a custom cake for someone.

I'm not in favor of requiring either of these things, but let's be real about it if we're gonna.
The difference of course being that Jones is banned for being an asshole, not for wanting a wedding cake while possessing incorrect genitals. The Colorado law doesn't say you have to serve everyone everything ever. It says that you can't pick and choose based on race, gender, religion, etc. If facebook starts banning white dudes or Christians or whatever the analogy will hold.

We can argue with the value/morality of forcing someone to do business under the limited circumstances of racial/religious/gender discrimination, but that limited circumstance should not be confused with a blanket ban on free association.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 17 Aug 2018, 20:38

Yeah I don't know. That seems like a distinction without a difference. Cocksuckers come in a variety of race, gender, religions, etc.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 17 Aug 2018, 20:39

lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:22
We can argue with the value/morality of forcing someone to do business under the limited circumstances of racial/religious/gender discrimination, but that limited circumstance should not be confused with a blanket ban on free association.
Outside of complete totalitarian hellholes, nobody ever does a blanket ban on free association, free speech, free press, etc. That's a strawman. Everything has a reason for the particular limitations on those rights they want (or get), even a reason we'd sympathize with.

I stand by what I said. I don't buy the bullshit hyper-particularism the left is fond of on these subjects, where nothing is comparable to anything else.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Aug 2018, 21:16

Eric the .5b wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:39
lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 20:22
We can argue with the value/morality of forcing someone to do business under the limited circumstances of racial/religious/gender discrimination, but that limited circumstance should not be confused with a blanket ban on free association.
Outside of complete totalitarian hellholes, nobody ever does a blanket ban on free association, free speech, free press, etc. That's a strawman. Everything has a reason for the particular limitations on those rights they want (or get), even a reason we'd sympathize with.

I stand by what I said. I don't buy the bullshit hyper-particularism the left is fond of on these subjects, where nothing is comparable to anything else.
OK but I can see a massive difference between "no coloreds" and "holy shit no you keep being a goddamned asshole and refuse to stop saying wildly unfounded things about crime victims and generally shitting all over the fundamental concept of reality so despite tolerating you for several years we're over it now find another place to be a dick."

That's not hyper-particularism. You can quibble about whether 'no I don't want to put my creative juices to work celebrating your upcoming marriage to a woman because you're not a man and I don't think women should be allowed to do that only men should' is closer to 'no coloreds' or to 'holy shit no you keep being a goddamned asshole' but you should at least be able to see that there's a real difference. It's not just arbitrary. I don't buy the bullshit hyper-generalism you attribute here.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 17 Aug 2018, 21:39

lunchstealer wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 21:16
OK but I can see a massive difference
Of course there's a difference. A huge one, even. There are always differences.

It's still the same issue.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 00:32

Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 18 Aug 2018, 00:32

OK. We're all agreed, Nobody has to bake a cake for Alex Jones.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Aug 2018, 01:22

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.

Ultimately I'm not the biggest fan of antidiscrimination laws from a theory-of-government standpoint, but I can't really get too far away from them from a practical standpoint where too many people would be assholes to entire identifiable groups of people based on nothing but physical attributes or religious belief, and where that assholery was enforced by the government for centuries. A government remedy to a centuries-old government-enforced shitshow isn't the biggest infraction against liberty on my particular plate right now.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Aug 2018, 01:23

Aresen wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
OK. We're all agreed, Nobody has to bake a cake for Alex Jones.
Elizabeth Warren does.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 10:38

lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Dangerman » 18 Aug 2018, 13:19

"I don't like the action of cohabitation between men."

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Aug 2018, 14:37

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:38
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
Yeah but gay marriage is a gender/sex equality thing. If the guy will bake a cake if I want to marry Rachael Weisz, but refuse Ellie if she wants to marry her, he's fundamentally engaged in sex discrimination. His problem is with the contents of our trousers. He can couch it in eval wikkidness all he wants, but that's what he's up to. It's not particularly different than baking a cake for a white man marrying a white woman but refusing for a black man marrying a white woman. And if you don't think there are people who hold it as a matter of religious faith that black dudes shouldn't marry white ladies, I present my MIL for your inspection. She has apparently softened on that in later years, but she explicitly told mrs lunch in the early '90s that she couldn't date black dudes because God wanted the races to stay separate like he created them.

And in the cases of both race discrimination and gender discrimination, under current law that's a no-no.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 14:44

lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:37
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:38
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
Yeah but gay marriage is a gender/sex equality thing. If the guy will bake a cake if I want to marry Rachael Weisz, but refuse Ellie if she wants to marry her, he's fundamentally engaged in sex discrimination. His problem is with the contents of our trousers. He can couch it in eval wikkidness all he wants, but that's what he's up to. It's not particularly different than baking a cake for a white man marrying a white woman but refusing for a black man marrying a white woman. And if you don't think there are people who hold it as a matter of religious faith that black dudes shouldn't marry white ladies, I present my MIL for your inspection. She has apparently softened on that in later years, but she explicitly told mrs lunch in the early '90s that she couldn't date black dudes because God wanted the races to stay separate like he created them.

And in the cases of both race discrimination and gender discrimination, under current law that's a no-no.
No sale. Discriminating against homosexuals is not sex discrimination. Whether you choose to be a homosexual or not, getting gay married is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Number 6 » 18 Aug 2018, 15:05

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:44
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:37
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:38
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
Yeah but gay marriage is a gender/sex equality thing. If the guy will bake a cake if I want to marry Rachael Weisz, but refuse Ellie if she wants to marry her, he's fundamentally engaged in sex discrimination. His problem is with the contents of our trousers. He can couch it in eval wikkidness all he wants, but that's what he's up to. It's not particularly different than baking a cake for a white man marrying a white woman but refusing for a black man marrying a white woman. And if you don't think there are people who hold it as a matter of religious faith that black dudes shouldn't marry white ladies, I present my MIL for your inspection. She has apparently softened on that in later years, but she explicitly told mrs lunch in the early '90s that she couldn't date black dudes because God wanted the races to stay separate like he created them.

And in the cases of both race discrimination and gender discrimination, under current law that's a no-no.
No sale. Discriminating against homosexuals is not sex discrimination. Whether you choose to be a homosexual or not, getting gay married is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable.
Not relevant or a valid argument, but those people can eat a dick and choke.
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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 18 Aug 2018, 16:04

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:44

No sale. Discriminating against homosexuals is not sex discrimination. Whether you choose to be a homosexual or not, getting gay married is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable.
How is that any different from "Marrying someone of a different race is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable"?
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 16:29

Number 6 wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 15:05
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:44
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:37
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:38
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
Yeah but gay marriage is a gender/sex equality thing. If the guy will bake a cake if I want to marry Rachael Weisz, but refuse Ellie if she wants to marry her, he's fundamentally engaged in sex discrimination. His problem is with the contents of our trousers. He can couch it in eval wikkidness all he wants, but that's what he's up to. It's not particularly different than baking a cake for a white man marrying a white woman but refusing for a black man marrying a white woman. And if you don't think there are people who hold it as a matter of religious faith that black dudes shouldn't marry white ladies, I present my MIL for your inspection. She has apparently softened on that in later years, but she explicitly told mrs lunch in the early '90s that she couldn't date black dudes because God wanted the races to stay separate like he created them.

And in the cases of both race discrimination and gender discrimination, under current law that's a no-no.
No sale. Discriminating against homosexuals is not sex discrimination. Whether you choose to be a homosexual or not, getting gay married is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable.
Not relevant or a valid argument, but those people can eat a dick and choke.
And I was about to say "Exactly, and you shouldn't have to bake a cake for them." But you're not a cake baker, and then it hit me. As an EMT, I actually don't think you should be allowed that luxury. If some gay-bashing skinhead is lying with his dick in the dirt and you get called to the scene, your job is to provide the best care you're capable of. I think that goes beyond an ethical duty. It's a legal duty as well. You don't get to say, "fuck that guy".
I expect you actually agree with that. But I'm not sure where and how I draw the line now.
In principle, I'm a free association guy. You don't have to bake cakes, you don't have to host vloggers, you don't have to do business with anyone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.
But I have exceptions. In addition to Emergency responders, I don't think most doctors and medical service providers get to make that call either.
And there comes a point when free association becomes institutional oppression. One 'whites only' lunch counter in town isn't a problem, segregation all over town is. I'm not sure where it tips. I am sure that in 2018 America it's not necessary to force people to provide their services to all race, gender, religion, because discrimination based on those criteria is not generally tolerated.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Aug 2018, 16:38

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:44
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 14:37
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 10:38
lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 01:22
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 00:32
Yeah lunch. The more I read your argument the more it sounds like "But I really really don't like him".
Was that not clear? The thing is that he's disliked for his actions, not for the color of his skin or the content of his britches. If you don't want to do business with someone because they personally are dicks and you personally don't like them as a person, you're probably going to be fine. If you have a blanket ban or are just an asshole to people based mostly on their gender or race or creed or national origin that has relatively little to do with them as a person, that's gonna land you in an unsympathetic court.
But gay marriage is none of those things. And some people think AJ is just peachy and teh gays are repugnant, wicked, destroyers of decency.
The courts are likely to rule as you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're drawing a line that is anything better than "I know whats right and don't give a shit about stomping on the people I don't like".
Yeah but gay marriage is a gender/sex equality thing. If the guy will bake a cake if I want to marry Rachael Weisz, but refuse Ellie if she wants to marry her, he's fundamentally engaged in sex discrimination. His problem is with the contents of our trousers. He can couch it in eval wikkidness all he wants, but that's what he's up to. It's not particularly different than baking a cake for a white man marrying a white woman but refusing for a black man marrying a white woman. And if you don't think there are people who hold it as a matter of religious faith that black dudes shouldn't marry white ladies, I present my MIL for your inspection. She has apparently softened on that in later years, but she explicitly told mrs lunch in the early '90s that she couldn't date black dudes because God wanted the races to stay separate like he created them.

And in the cases of both race discrimination and gender discrimination, under current law that's a no-no.
No sale. Discriminating against homosexuals is not sex discrimination. Whether you choose to be a homosexual or not, getting gay married is an action that you choose. And as you yourself have just pointed out, some people think that action is despicable.
Yes. Getting married is an action you choose, and a black man choosing to marry a white woman is something that some people find despicable, and you can't tell me that's not racist. It is exactly the same thing if it's a black woman marrying a white woman, except some people won't give a fuck that she's black, but will give a fuck that she's a woman. Those people are engaged in a very specific form of sex discrimination and it's. Supporting only homoracial marriage is racial discrimination. Supporting only heterosexual marriage is sexual discrimination.

I just don't see how you can find a real differentiator between opposing a black man marrying a white woman and opposing a white woman marrying that same white woman except that in one case you object to the race of the potential spouse and in the other you object to the sex of the potential spouse. If it is racism to object to something based on the relative races of the participants I cannot see a logical - as opposed to cultural or emotional or traditional - reason to say that it is not also sexism to object to something based on the relative sexes of the participants.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Dangerman » 18 Aug 2018, 16:45

As long as you aren't actively threatening people, human life has value. Thus emergency staff should always preserve life as a base value. That (emergency survival) is separate from transacting economically IMO.

If a coffee house can rightfully not serve a group of skin heads who want to have a Nazi meeting, they can rightfully not serve a group of LGBT activists who want to have a LGBT rights discussion IMO.

If I can rightly refuse to create and decorate a cake with a swastika on it , I can rightly refuse to make a gay wedding cake.

Does that all follow for you guys?

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