Marriage is Totally Gay

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thoreau
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 19 Sep 2017, 13:00

Dangerman wrote:Is a photographer obligated to take photos of an orgy?
If the photographer offered an ethical objection to doing it? Yeah, I think that would be called discrimination these days.

If the photographer told his female employee to assist him shooting the orgy, that would also be discrimination these days.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by the innominate one » 19 Sep 2017, 13:12

I think the argument would go that if you are a photographer who takes pictures of orgies involving male/female intercourse, you cannot decline to photograph an orgy involving only men.

No one would decline to photograph a lesbian orgy, so there's no need to discuss that possibility.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Mo » 19 Sep 2017, 13:12

Dangerman wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 12:49
Is a photographer obligated to take photos of an orgy?
No, but can't discriminate between all dude and mixed gender orgies. :twisted:
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Dangerman » 19 Sep 2017, 14:25

Good, we all see 5 lights. Or however many there are.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 19 Sep 2017, 14:27

Leaving questions of freedom-of-association aside, there's also the question of where we draw the line at 'this is expression'. At SOME point you have to make a distinction between creative artistic expression and making vaguely aesthetic decisions to be fancy. Art is expression for expression's sake. Decorating a cake is making a tasty confection that is also pretty in a specific way.

I guess the question is what level of expression would really go into the cake they requested, and is the expression itself religious expression, or is it something he'd happily make for a straight couple. Is the particular expression the problem, or the customer? And what level of expression is there in the creation? Is it closer to sculpture that happens to be edible, or is it simply choosing specific decorations? If I am a car dealer who allows people to choose materials, paint colors, and decorations for a car, is building a custom car based on those decorative choices actually free expression? Can a car dealer allow a gay couple to buy a car off the lot, but not allow them to order a vehicle in a paint color they don't have on the lot at the chosen trim level?

Now, as I understand things based on a Popehat lawsplaining it is possible for a given activity to be constitutionally unprotected but for the law in question to be struck down because it cannot be reasonably applied in such a way that distinguishes between protected speech and other activity. I know that was the case in the Texas case where a man had been convicted of taking photos up the skirts of women. The law was struck down and the conviction vacated, not because his photos were considered protected - apparently they were not. Rather it was struck down because the law was vague in a way that didn't allow for a distinction between genuinely invasive photos like upskirts and protected photos that do meet 1A criteria. So one could say that the baker in question is not engaged in constitutionally protected activity but still vacate any judgements against him and send the legislature in question back to the drawing board to write a law that prohibits commercial discrimination while also protecting genuine freedom of expression.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by the innominate one » 19 Sep 2017, 14:31

Dangerman wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:25
Good, we all see 5 lights. Or however many there are.
But do we all see all 6 sexes?
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Painboy » 19 Sep 2017, 14:58

the innominate one wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:31
Dangerman wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:25
Good, we all see 5 lights. Or however many there are.
But do we all see all 6 sexes?
Just 6? What are you some kind of dinosaur grandpa?

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 19 Sep 2017, 15:00

Painboy wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:58
the innominate one wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:31
Dangerman wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:25
Good, we all see 5 lights. Or however many there are.
But do we all see all 6 sexes?
Just 6? What are you some kind of dinosaur grandpa?
Damn your fast fingers, Painboy!
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Dangerman » 19 Sep 2017, 15:24

Lunchstealer: The Freedom of Expression tack is only necessary because we've done away with Freedom of Association. So yeah, it's weak. But it's what's left once we decide that you can force people to associate and conduct business with other people against their better judgment.

I'd personally draw a line at 'participating', with defining features of participation being things like bespoke or tailored products or services (as opposed to off-the-rack premade goods), need for cooperation with the consumer or consideration for their taste, artistic or aesthetic expression by the producer, stuff like that.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 19 Sep 2017, 16:34

lunchstealer wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 14:27
Leaving questions of freedom-of-association aside, there's also the question of where we draw the line at 'this is expression'. At SOME point you have to make a distinction between creative artistic expression and making vaguely aesthetic decisions to be fancy. Art is expression for expression's sake. Decorating a cake is making a tasty confection that is also pretty in a specific way.

I guess the question is what level of expression would really go into the cake they requested, and is the expression itself religious expression, or is it something he'd happily make for a straight couple. Is the particular expression the problem, or the customer?
That question occurred to me as well. Presumably, this baker would have no problem whatsoever making a cake for "David and Charlie" if Charlie were a woman's nickname (Charlotte, Charlene, etc.), yet he claims it's a problem upon discovering Charlie is a guy? Unless he's actually hand-crafting the traditional bride-n-groom figurines topping the cake or something like that, his "art" is exactly the same regardless of who is buying it.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 19 Sep 2017, 16:37

It is an interesting question to what extent (if any) one can plausibly draft rules that protect artistic freedom in commercial matters while abridging freedom of association. It seems hard to carve out those lines even in principle.

(And, as always, I venture no opinion on whether those lines can/can't/must/mustn't be drawn within the framework of existing rules.)
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 19 Sep 2017, 16:43

I guess I'd draw a bit of a line between, say, a generically bespoke item like a suit that would be identical if the dude were marrying a woman as if he were marrying a man.

A cake that says, "Get ready for marital buttsegks!" would require a different level of expression or participation than just making a fancy cake that is made using the color palate chosen by two dudes instead of a man and woman. If the regular passerby couldn't tell the difference, and the point is to make a pretty cake to be eaten, rather than a true artwork, I'm not sure I am all that on board with calling it meaningful participation as expression, rather than simply freedom of association. If you put a rainbow or other symbol of gay pride, then that's a higher level of involvement, and would more closely match the 'would you make a swastika cake' question. So if it's free-expression related, I suppose that I'm more comfortable with content-based allowances rather than customer-based allowances.

A photographer who has to be there and actively participate in the ceremony (assuming they take photos during the ceremony) has a higher level of involvement.

So I'm not comfortable from exempting all services from public accommodation laws, if we are to have such laws, I don't think there's a great deal of value in making, say, mechanics exempt.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Sep 2017, 12:53

Wedding cakes taste like ass. They are a symptom of how weddings suck.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Sandy » 21 Sep 2017, 14:11

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 12:53
Wedding cakes taste like ass. They are a symptom of how weddings suck.
I must have been lucky. The last few have been decent. But none of them were over-the-top stunt cakes, either. Buttercream, no fondant, like god intended.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Sep 2017, 14:55

Sandy wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 14:11
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 12:53
Wedding cakes taste like ass. They are a symptom of how weddings suck.
I must have been lucky. The last few have been decent. But none of them were over-the-top stunt cakes, either. Buttercream, no fondant, like god intended.
This sedimenty gryller speaks my mind.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Sep 2017, 15:05

Wedding pies would be better.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Sep 2017, 15:41

You can't mix pie and champaign, except maybe french silk pie or chocolate mouse pie.

Nobody doesn't like white cake with vanilla buttercream frosting. Lots of people don't like pretty much any variant on pie.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Sep 2017, 15:53

A. Champagne sucks.
B. You hang around bad people.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Sep 2017, 16:51

Sorry. To clarify:

You're not getting rid of champaign, and almost no pies can be mixed with champaign, and the champaign consumption and cake/pie consumption are generally highly proximal.

Nobody doesn't like white cake with buttercream frosting.

For any given pie, you can find a lot of people who don't like it.

Therefore for any given ceremony with pie, some percentage of guests will not like it, no matter what type of pie you get, and most of them will clash with the champaign that infests almost all traditional non-teetotaling ceremonies.

If you go with white cake with buttercream, nobody will dislike it, and it won't clash with the champaign.

Also any pie worth eating would ruin fancy clothes if dropped while eating. This is a concern for me. White cake with buttercream, which nobody dislikes, would have to work hard to ruin clothes.

There is much to be said for pies, but it is too problematic to be implemented widely in large formal ceremonies the majority of which will involve champaign and fancy/expensive clothes.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jadagul » 21 Sep 2017, 17:13

It's also much harder to make good pies at scale.

And clearly y'all have never had good champagne. (That said, you're probably not going to have good champagne at a big wedding, so that doesn't matter much).

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by nicole » 21 Sep 2017, 17:14

White cake with buttercream is flavorless sugary bullshit. That is all.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Sep 2017, 17:19

Nobody dislikes it.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Sep 2017, 17:31

Sorry, champagne is ass.

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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 21 Sep 2017, 17:54

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 17:31
Sorry, champagne is ass.
I've tasted a lot of ass champagne. But I've had some good stuff too. I once splurged on an expensive bottle of champagne for a romantic get away. I literally orgasmed at the taste of it.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by dbcooper » 21 Sep 2017, 17:57

Champagne is great. FFF is on strike two now.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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